[Politics] Would YOU be happy to pay more income tax so OAPs could keep their fuel payments?

[Brian Fantana]

Absolutely not.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Interesting thread. I voted yes.

However I'm, with @Thunder Bolt in general terms in that there should be no reason for a winter fuel allowance.

I would also add that if there is a winter fuel allowance it seems to make sense to means test it (I don't need it) and yet the cost of means testing will offset any savings; the individual sums involved are too small, and the numbers of people who would have to be 'looked at' is vast.

I think Labour have cocked this one up. But I am not sure how they can do anything differently. If they raise the threshold they won't save any money. If they get rid of the allowance and raise basic state pension they won't save any money and those who don't need an increase will nevertheless get an increase. They should have left this alone and focused on something that can be usefully altered.

Despite being an old lefty, I am not in favour of any benefits unless to help people who cannot earn an income owing to illness or disability. Benefits as a solution to low income and savings is wrong.

I would phase out universal benefits in line with moves to ensure wages/salaries are increased. This has to be done in tandem and it will take years.

Putting my old lefty hat back on, the UK is a great place for multinationals and entrepreneurs to make more money than they can elsewhere owing to tax breaks (for the rich), and that can't be right.

We need to 'rebalance' the damage done by the right (and I will admit Blair's excessively relaxed attitude to 'the wealthy' and their rubric is relevant here too), as evidenced most starkly from the relationship between house prices and average income. Actually allow working people the means to pay their way, and stop pretending we can turn the UK into some sort of low wage long hours Hong Kong of Europe, then finding too many are dependent on benefits that are expensive to curate.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

They would not know household incomes, for many reasons. There is no database.

The 880,000 would be an educated estimate.

Exactly. Means testing is guesswork and is expensive to curate.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I know the mods are on a pretty decent salary here, but I'm not sure GB getting the elbow is going to save £22m!

In answer to the question, no, not really. Almost all of the people I know who got winter fuel payments didn't need it and told me how they spend it on other stuff. The people that DO need it still get it, no?

However, I do think there are better ways of plugging the financial hole, but maybe they are more difficult (going after tax evaders, clawing back PPE contract money, etc).

I have a suspicion @cjd was having a personal dig at @Guinness Boy . I could of course be wrong. It needs to be meanness tested.

 

[Weststander]

Exactly. Means testing is guesswork and is expensive to curate.

And that’s only for those who applied. There would be some checking eg to state pension data.

 

[Chicken Run]

They were not pensioners, and were exactly the type of people I am talking about

The mother, the weird friend weren’t pensioner’s ?

 

[Chicken Run]

Start a new thread . It's a very different experience to when I went to Uni in the 1990's, that's for sure. My guess is more are likely living at home, and wonder what the figures are around which kids are going... i.e. less from working class background, more from those with money who can afford to pay. But that's guesswork

I have got three children, 2 currently at Uni one just graduated, i didn’t contribute anything to them going, they did all from the grant Also the high interest rate on the loan I’ve just checked and its not that high

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

They would not know household incomes, for many reasons. There is no database.

The 880,000 would be an educated estimate.

Probably a dumb question but surely the tax man knows now much people earned over the last tax year?

 

[Weststander]

Probably a dumb question but surely the tax man knows now much people earned over the last tax year?

It’s a wider question than that.

For 34 years? we’ve had independent taxation, each person is a tax island. Whilst benefits such as pension credit are based on household, only then collated when applied for via a huge online form. No government agency has per household data without that. Also checking for child benefit.

Although libertarian experts such as Roger Waters and Matt Le Tissier would claim they do hold the numbers.

 

[cirC]

If the government are happy to stop the WFP then perhaps an example should be set and all MPs decline their second fuel payments and have the heating turned off in Parliament. After all there is enough hot air in Westminster to keep London hot. Then of course the Sh*t that pours out could in theory keep their feet warm.
This applies to all political persuasion, waste of space the lot.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It’s a wider question than that.

For 34 years? we’ve had independent taxation, each person is a tax island. Whilst benefits such as pension credit are based on household, only then collated when applied for via a huge online form. No government agency has per household data without that.

Although libertarian experts such as Roger Waters and Matt Le Tissier would claim they do hold the numbers.

Fair enough. All I know is I have to complete a self-assessment and it’s nigh on impossible to get any money back without a lengthy battle!

 

[Weststander]

Fair enough. All I know is I have to complete a self-assessment and it’s nigh on impossible to get any money back without a lengthy battle!

Because of your letting portfolio. 10m’s don’t complete a tax return.

In addition there’s no database lumping your UK household income in with Mrs.HT.

 

[chickens]

There’s something deeply wrong in this country. We’re one of the richest countries in Europe, yet are constantly being told that we can’t afford decent public services.

I would happily pay more tax, but would want to see the state pension amount (and therefore the pension credit threshold) increased. At present our energy bills are high, but I want to give Starmer’s plans a chance to be put into practice and see if they make a difference.

I also desperately want to see working age benefits increased. Until we’ve got the NHS back on its feet, there’s going to be a lot of people on the long-term sick who until they’ve had their operation can’t return to work.

This all needs paying for. I’d happily pay 5% more income tax if it meant we could treat people humanely and get our public services back on their feet.

 

[There'll never be another]

Most of our incomes have been battered by inflation and paying ridiculous amounts on bills. Meanwhile the richest have seen a massive increase in their incomes, whilst their tax burden has fallen. Is it really the case we're not allowed to talk about taxing these bastards?
If we taxed billionaires an extra 10% they'd still be paying amongst the lowest tax rates for their incomes in the world. And 10% of their incomes is more than most can conceive (personally I'd like to see them return to 1970s levels of 80 & 90% then we'd be able to fund mono rails everywhere).
We need to put the kind of effort into making sure they pay up, than we put into clawing back pennies for benefit fraud.
Also most of the worlds tax havens belong to the UK, just shut them down. An extra 2% on the majority would cripple us financially and raises little compared to an extra 2% on the wealthiest and they'd not even have to consider changing internet provider and shopping at Aldi.
And the gas, electric, oil companies should be either contributing or we should stop contributing to their obscene profits.

Well, it's the 'rich bastards' who pay a lot of tax anyway....

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Probably a dumb question but surely the tax man knows now much people earned over the last tax year?

I think @Weststander meant overall wealth and obligations rather than income in a year. If income in a year were the yardstick there would be no need for any benefits, with tax take could be fluidly adjusted according to income. Sort of thing.

 

[dazzer6666]

Fair enough. All I know is I have to complete a self-assessment and it’s nigh on impossible to get any money back without a lengthy battle!

I overpaid a few times, always got repayments from HMRC within a few days once the calculation had been agreed

 

[Weststander]

There’s something deeply wrong in this country. We’re one of the richest countries in Europe, yet are constantly being told that we can’t afford decent public services.

I would happily pay more tax, but would want to see the state pension amount (and therefore the pension credit threshold) increased. At present our energy bills are high, but I want to give Starmer’s plans a chance to be put into practice and see if they make a difference.

I also desperately want to see working age benefits increased. Until we’ve got the NHS back on its feet, there’s going to be a lot of people on the long-term sick who until they’ve had their operation can’t return to work.

This all needs paying for. I’d happily pay 5% more income tax if it meant we could treat people humanely and get our public services back on their feet.

Imho the state pension shouldn’t be increased further for the many millions (including my parents) who are sitting pretty. This would include retired folk on fantastic DB pensions.

There are far more pressing social needs.

 

[timbha]

Where have you got those figures from?

They are hypothetical and were used to make the point that you can’t apportion tax to specific issues. You need one pot that needs to be divi’d up as fairly as possible.

 

[Weststander]

I think @Weststander meant overall wealth and obligations rather than income in a year. If income in a year were the yardstick there would be no need for any benefits, with tax take could be fluidly adjusted according to income. Sort of thing.

I did mean household income in this case. But I suppose savings might be involved on the long form?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I overpaid a few times, always got repayments from HMRC within a few days once the calculation had been agreed

Really? I had a real battle. Took about 18 months.