[News] World Wide Evil Organisation Hiding In Plain Sight

[highflyer]

I opened up the thread thinking it might be the English.

Many of the worlds issues today are due to their actions. More so than the Catholics.

Crikey. A non-sport related thread on which i agree with you!

That said, while I agree with a lot of the generalizations about the Catholic church, I do quite like the current Pope.
Catholicism has a very different flavour in Latin America compared to eslsewhere. Liberation theology is good stuff.

“The denunciation of injustice implies the rejection of the use of Christianity to legitimize the established order.”

Still seem to have an unforgiveable problem with rubber Johnnies though

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What? You could not be more wrong. It's been in Europe since at least the 8th century (Battle of Poitiers stopped it spreading further north). Then there was the Ottoman empire where they pushed up to the gates of Vienna - and where do you think the Muslims in places like Bosnia cam from?

I mean spread to become important like catholicism. Just looking at the UK, there are about 4 million Catholics and about 3 million muslims today - this wasn't the case at the start of the 20th century! And also Islam does not have a single leader and reference point equivalent to the Pope. Catholicism is therefore unique, and quibbling over small details does not change that.

Digression can be interesting, but sometimes it is irrelevant. Like arguing, for example, that because nobody can prove that our ecomomy will definitely be damaged by Brexit then this is a good reason why we should leave the EU.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

 

[Brovion]

I mean spread to become important like catholicism. Just looking at the UK, there are about 4 million Catholics and about 3 million muslims today - this wasn't the case at the start of the 20th century! And also Islam does not have a single leader and reference point equivalent to the Pope. Catholicism is therefore unique, and quibbling over small details does not change that.

Digression can be interesting, but sometimes it is irrelevant. Like arguing, for example, that because nobody can prove that our ecomomy will definitely be damaged by Brexit then this is a good reason why we should leave the EU.

Well no, and if your original statement had said it hadn't really spread to the UK until the 20th century I'd have agreed with you. But to say it 'hadn't really spread from the middle east until the 20th century' is wrong.

 

[Nottseagull]

I imagine Bozza's relieved this thread isn't about the Muslims

'of' isn't a word.

Dead right. It should be ' down with this sort've thing'

 

[ferring seagull]

What? You could not be more wrong. It's been in Europe since at least the 8th century (Battle of Poitiers stopped it spreading further north). Then there was the Ottoman empire where they pushed up to the gates of Vienna - and where do you think the Muslims in places like Bosnia cam from?

And North Africa into Spain !

 

[el punal]

Are you expecting anyone to defend the Catholic church?

The Pope springs to mind . . .

 

[AlastairWatts]

Ubtil you reached the last line I thought you were talking about the Thatcher government
/QUOTE]

Nah, I thought it was FIFA

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Well no, and if your original statement had said it hadn't really spread to the UK until the 20th century I'd have agreed with you. But to say it 'hadn't really spread from the middle east until the 20th century' is wrong.

Leave the pedantry to [MENTION=4019]Triggaaar[/MENTION]

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I opened up the thread thinking it might be the English.

Many of the worlds issues today are due to their actions. More so than the Catholics.

An ungrateful colonist speaks ...

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Nah. First there is no equivalent wordlwide religion. Islam didn't really start to spread from the mid east till the 20thC. Also it does not have one single command centre the equivalent of Rome or one leader equivalent to the Pope. And it isn't about what people 'see' as evil; fact is fact.

OK I will play devil's advocate now.

No organization can last near 2000 years without the following:

1. A structure of command and control
2. A widespread acceptance by its members/followers that the organization is working in its best interest, come what may.

The overwhelming success of the Catholic Church as a business that has thrived for longer than any other is based on the willingness of its shareholders/customers (stakeholders) to accept its authority in exchange for the promise of life everlasting in a place called Heaven. For this reason it has been able to 'get away' with a great deal, albeit for most of the time the stuff it has got away with was not regarded as especially bad at the time the stuff (like strident homophobia) was commonplace.

But of course, like all human organizations, it contains within it the full spectrum of people, from good to perverse. To protect the organization (all organizations must self preserve), decisions have been made to accomodate evil on a needs-must basis. Thus a bit of mutual blind eye turning allowed the Catholic church to survive Hitler and Mussolini. The days of Inquisition and torture are long past, and it is no more fair to judge the Catholics for long past evil than it is to judge other figures from the past by today's standards (recall the vilification of Churchill by some nobber recently). As for the much more recent blind eye turned to paedophiles and rapists in the church, this has been commonplace in all organizations until recently. It is more of an issue for the Catholic church because the church is so massive meaning the numbers of cases and people involved will be far in excess of that of other organizations. The case of Jimmy Savile shows that until recently everyone can be taken in by wishful thinking. Perhaps this is still the case....I know that scientific misconduct (an issue in my profession) remains largely a taboo topic which 'I am sure is extremely rare' (as most successful researchers will claim).

Anyway, the bottom line is that organizations including religions ought to be made, by law, to show themselves to be compliant with codes of conduct and be open to inspection especially with respect to any situations where a duty of care is owed to people who are beholden to the organization (from choir boys through kids in 'homes' to staff employed by the organization). Sadly, I suspect there are insufficient safeguards in law, with exemptions and areas simply not covered, when the business is a religion. Does anyone on NSC know for sure?

Even though I'm an athiest I am not keen on harassing the religious, but when it comes to relationships of unequal power, especially where adults hold sway over children, governments need to grow some, and not listen to special pleading. In my view, indoctrinating kids into any religion is potentiallt a form of child abuse (it depends on how it is done). Teaching small kids that homosexuality is a sin, or that menstruation is evil (I am not focusing on Catholicism here obviously) should be illegal. And there are of course issues of conflict of interest - perhaps allowing people of religion to hold positions of public power and influence should be made illegal. I'd go for that. But others will call that religious persecution.

One question for those who might know: If you want to work in social services dealing with kids you have to go through careful checks aimed at ensuring safeguarding. If you are a priest with a team of choir boys, or you are taking confirmation classes (as I received at St Nick's in Portslade at age 10) do you have to submit to the same procedures or are there exemptions?

Yes, the same as anyone working with children or vulnerable adults.

 

[Triggaaar]

This organisation is allowed not only to police itself

Presumably it's not as simple as that? If you go to the police here in the UK, and tell them of a serious crime committed by someone in the Catholic Church, would the police not investigate and prosecute?

 

[Triggaaar]

Leave the pedantry to [MENTION=4019]Triggaaar[/MENTION]

Would you like me to repeat what he said

 

[Juan Albion]

Ah, good to see ignorant hate speech is still tolerated on NSC.

 

[nickbrighton]

Presumably it's not as simple as that? If you go to the police here in the UK, and tell them of a serious crime committed by someone in the Catholic Church, would the police not investigate and prosecute?

you would hope and expect so, but the issue has been that the police were not told in numerous occasions

 

[Triggaaar]

the issue has been that the police were not told in numerous occasions

By whom? The police don't answer to the Church, so it's their job to, er, do their job, not act for the Church.

I believe that the Church has been allowed to police itself in some countries at some point, but I'd hope that's not the case in the UK now.

 

[GT49er]

Are you expecting anyone to defend the Catholic church?

Presumably you're not expecting the Spanish Inquisition?

 

[Frutos]

Presumably you're not expecting the Spanish Inquisition?

https://youtu.be/HqF_nPbX_Ow

(You set them up, I'll tap them in)

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Would you like me to repeat what he said

Yyyyyyyyyyno thanks.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

An ungrateful colonist speaks ...

I'm not a colonist. I'm a native with indigenous family.