Working Law information required please..........

[hitony]

Sounds like he knows that he is on dodgy ground but is trying to bully you because of your heritage!!! Your boss isn't Grant Shapps by any chance?

No it's not

The other thing is, are you responsible for the problems. If not, then maybe a meeting with him and his line manager could set the record straight. That said, if your line manager has got it in for you on a personal basis it probably isn't going to improve until one of you has left!

Not directly my fault, to explain everything he is on about is to much for on here..................and yes, I think you are right, one of us will have to go......

 

[BeeGee]

Write to the HR Manager, formally requesting that the record of a verbal warning be removed from your file. Explain that it was an informal meeting, and that at no time before or during the conversation were you told it was to constitute a verbal warning. Send a copy to the line manager too. Yes, it'll make him mad as a coyote, but he's a **** anyway, so that doesn't matter.

Request - in that same letter - a formal meeting, if (and only if) your line manager insists on going ahead with a verbal warning. Tell HR very clearly that you want it arranged through them, not just another informal chat, and that you are to be notified in advance so you can arrange for your representative to be present; no need to say who - just leave it open as a veiled threat.

That should ruffle them a bit - no guarantees, though - there never are. Ultimately, if they're a medium/large company, they can afford thousands of pounds for a super smarmy but very forceful barrister; you can't (I'm guessing).

Hitony, being of similar vintage, I urge you to formalise everything by following the above steps. I have found here in Oz that once we reach our senior years and continue working, we have to justify our existence at almost every turn. Think about introducing also, perhaps at the meeting, your concerns about his attitude to your "ethnicity" and almost certainly your age, both of which show a particular bias which is illegal.

Don't go down wondering, my friend. Bullies don't like publicity. Prepare, stay focussed, and make sure all correspondence is recorded.

Brian

 

[NooBHA]

That is not a verbal warning you received and even if he had stated that it was a verbal warning, you can refuse to accept that as a verbal warning. So given that you didn't accept it as a verbal warning, then it was not a verbal warning

Confused.........me too

 

[thedonkeycentrehalf]

First thing to do is to get a copy of the current disciplinary and grievance policies from your HR department. If, as most of us suspect, he has not followed the correct process then you should speak to HR and have this formal warning immediately removed from your record. If you feel this is personal and/or a form of bullying , you can then check the grievance policy and see if it is something you want to consider following up.

I had a similar personality clash a while ago with a Director and ended up on a disputed formal warning. A year later , I was still in post and he was no longer with the company so it's worth toughing these things out sometimes.

 

[wellquickwoody]

It used to be 12 months which is more than enough time for an employer to decide on whether an employee fits in or not. But this government decided this was far too biased towards the employee and changed it.

It has been 2 years for ages, stop trying to score political points.

Good luck Tony!

 

[Ernest]

Apart from the obvious which is seek your union advice and if you're not in one then ring ACAS but to be blunt an employer can basically sack you now if they wish, there is little employment protection now.

 

[portlock seagull]

Not directly my fault, to explain everything he is on about is to much for on here..................and yes, I think you are right, one of us will have to go......

It's an awful situation to be in, so along with Drews advice I would just like to add that in no way should you see this as a bad reflection on yourself. As you know, life is just like this sometimes. Unfair and crap. But you're an adult, you can deal with it and are more in control than most of us ever think we are I.e. You can chose to work for this idiot or not. I'd be looking to move on. Good working relationships that come naturally are important to me. Life is too short to not enjoy working with and have respect for the people around you. The boss isn't always right but he's always the boss as they say!

 

[portlock seagull]

Apart from the obvious which is seek your union advice and if you're not in one then ring ACAS but to be blunt an employer can basically sack you now if they wish, there is little employment protection now.

What he said. And me. And others. Afraid it's true.

 

[drew]

It has been 2 years for ages, stop trying to score political points.

Good luck Tony!

6th April 2012. Hardly ages.

 

[binky]

I had a similar situation a few years back.
I went to see the company's "independent Ombudsperson" for advice.
It was very enlightening.
In summary, unless you have witnesses to your "verbal warning", who are prepared to go on the record on your behalf, then it comes down to your word vs the managers. In terms of internal company processes, the manager always wins this.
I was advised that my options were to leave of my own volition, or suck it up, and toe the line.

At our next meeting, I demanded an HR representative to be present, which my manager refused as "unnecessary", so I took copious notes of everything which was said.
I told him I didn't accept the warning, and that after taking "independent advice", I was prepared to resort to an external employment tribunal if necessary, citing constructive dismissal.

The "verbal warning" remained on my record (I was told), but I heard no more about it from anyone.

Fast forward to the present, I'm still here, but the manager is long gone.

My point, inexpertly made, is that I felt I had little to lose after my consult with the ombudsperson, so I called the managers bluff by letting him believe I had taken legal advice, and ensuring that he knew I wasn't going to be bullied.

 

[Tarpon]

It has been 2 years for ages, stop trying to score political points.

Good luck Tony!

2012 is hardly ages ago (particularly in legislative terms).
The Gov were very open about 'rebalancing' all tribunal related processes in favour of the employer - it's not disputed.
Even if the change was less recent the history of the qualifying period for unfair dismissal claims is relevant to the discussion.
Given the above it hardly warrants the description of attempted political point scoring does it?
In this context I'm afraid your instruction to 'stop trying to score political points' appears a little misguided, officious and defensive.

My advice to Tony would be:

1. To hand write a detailed note of exactly what was said by you and your manager that day and sign and date it as a contemporaneous record. Make a similar factual record of relevant events at work.
2. Keep similar detailed notes of all subsequent events. Assume these notes may have a formal audience at some point.
3. Contact ACAS for free anonymous guidance with no obligation.
4. Wait to see what you received in writing regarding the alleged warning.
5. Take further advice on receipt of any letter.
6. In the interim I would be cautious about escalating your concerns with the senior manager who probably recruited your new manager.
7. Assuming your work record is good and based on what you have said a formal verbal warning looks pretty provocative but also the classic hallmark of a new manager trying to make an impression.
8. I would keep your powder dry and keep doing a decent job until you see what is in writing.
9. Get copies of company procedure etc. to inform the above. Preferably without having to go via HR or Mgt to get it.
10. If you get nothing in writing I would be tempted to keep stumm as even a verbal warning should be confirmed etc. And if they fail to do so it loses validity.

All the best.

 

[drew]

2012 is hardly ages ago (particularly in legislative terms).
The Gov were very open about 'rebalancing' all tribunal related processes in favour of the employer - it's not disputed.
Even if the change was less recent the history of the qualifying period for unfair dismissal claims is relevant to the discussion.
Given the above it hardly warrants the description of attempted political point scoring does it?
In this context I'm afraid your instruction to 'stop trying to score political points' appears a little misguided, officious and defensive.

My advice to Tony would be:

1. To hand write a detailed note of exactly what was said by you and your manager that day and sign and date it as a contemporaneous record. Make a similar factual record of relevant events at work.
2. Keep similar detailed notes of all subsequent events. Assume these notes may have a formal audience at some point.
3. Contact ACAS for free anonymous guidance with no obligation.
4. Wait to see what you received in writing regarding the alleged warning.
5. Take further advice on receipt of any letter.
6. In the interim I would be cautious about escalating your concerns with the senior manager who probably recruited your new manager.
7. Assuming your work record is good and based on what you have said a formal verbal warning looks pretty provocative but also the classic hallmark of a new manager trying to make an impression.
8. I would keep your powder dry and keep doing a decent job until you see what is in writing.
9. Get copies of company procedure etc. to inform the above. Preferably without having to go via HR or Mgt to get it.
10. If you get nothing in writing I would be tempted to keep stumm as even a verbal warning should be confirmed etc. And if they fail to do so it loses validity.

All the best.

Having been in a similar situation, the above is good advice. Even better if you can keep a discrete voice recorder on you so that if your line manager does corner you and make inappropriate comments then you have an indisputable record. It might not be admissible but could be useful if relations deteriorate drastically.

 

[Tarpon]

Oh & I meant to add that if you are concerned that you may be being discriminated against based on your nationality then you will need to evidence that you have been treated less favourably than others because of this characteristic. You can bring a discrimination claim without 2 years continuous service.

You need to monitor and keep records of your concerns / events and be prepared to raise the issue formally in due course to seek to resolve them (any claim you may make in the future may be undermined if you did not seek to address it through grievance / appeal procedures excepting cases where the treatment is so bad that it is accepted that the claimant had no trust and confidence in such processes and feared further mistreatment / reprisals etc.). Needless to say it's not a course to be undertaken lightly so take advice.

 

[GT49er]

3. Contact ACAS for free anonymous guidance with no obligation.

Sadly, ACAS advice is free for a very good reason. At 'free' it is vastly over-priced.......

 

[Tarpon]

Sadly, ACAS advice is free for a very good reason. At 'free' it is vastly over-priced.......

Yeah you're quite right: I should clarify that they will not take sides and/or advise on your specific case in any sort of detail but they should explain the employer's min legal obligations and best practice guidelines etc. Despite their limitations the basic documents on their site may be worth a look, especially in comparison to your company procedures.

 

[hitony]

Thanks to everyone who has offered opinions and advice, muchly appreciated. I will just see what happens for now, as yet I have recieved nothing in writing, he has also not followed company procedure, I have read my Contract of employment and I must be made aware etc.

If I do recive something in writing, confirmimg it was a verbal warning, I will respond in writing, obviously not accepting it. The company is is a small to medium size, about 175 employees in total, around a 7 million turnover per year, one thing I do know, they are shit scared of any thought of a tribunal or bad (local) press, that said I appreciate at having very little length of employment, I have little on my side!

I will play it all very slowly and carefully, again thank you NSC .............oh and I will keep you updated......

 

[wellquickwoody]

2012 is hardly ages ago (particularly in legislative terms).
The Gov were very open about 'rebalancing' all tribunal related processes in favour of the employer - it's not disputed.
Even if the change was less recent the history of the qualifying period for unfair dismissal claims is relevant to the discussion.
Given the above it hardly warrants the description of attempted political point scoring does it?
In this context I'm afraid your instruction to 'stop trying to score political points' appears a little misguided, officious and defensive.

My advice to Tony would be:

1. To hand write a detailed note of exactly what was said by you and your manager that day and sign and date it as a contemporaneous record. Make a similar factual record of relevant events at work.
2. Keep similar detailed notes of all subsequent events. Assume these notes may have a formal audience at some point.
3. Contact ACAS for free anonymous guidance with no obligation.
4. Wait to see what you received in writing regarding the alleged warning.
5. Take further advice on receipt of any letter.
6. In the interim I would be cautious about escalating your concerns with the senior manager who probably recruited your new manager.
7. Assuming your work record is good and based on what you have said a formal verbal warning looks pretty provocative but also the classic hallmark of a new manager trying to make an impression.
8. I would keep your powder dry and keep doing a decent job until you see what is in writing.
9. Get copies of company procedure etc. to inform the above. Preferably without having to go via HR or Mgt to get it.
10. If you get nothing in writing I would be tempted to keep stumm as even a verbal warning should be confirmed etc. And if they fail to do so it loses validity.

All the best.

The law was altered back in 2012 but it has been common knowledge that the reality of employment law is that up until you have 2 years under your belt you do not have the full protection afforded to those with longer service. Employers can be creative, and as ever, life ain't always fair.

Good advice offered though

 

[Tarpon]

Thanks to everyone who has offered opinions and advice, muchly appreciated. I will just see what happens for now, as yet I have recieved nothing in writing, he has also not followed company procedure, I have read my Contract of employment and I must be made aware etc.

If I do recive something in writing, confirmimg it was a verbal warning, I will respond in writing, obviously not accepting it. The company is is a small to medium size, about 175 employees in total, around a 7 million turnover per year, one thing I do know, they are shit scared of any thought of a tribunal or bad (local) press, that said I appreciate at having very little length of employment, I have little on my side!

I will play it all very slowly and carefully, again thank you NSC .............oh and I will keep you updated......

It's jumping the gun but it is worth finding out if your firm's dismissal processes are contractually binding. If they are and they if they fail to follow their own dismissal procedure then you may have a claim for breach of contract and be in a position to claim damages resulting from the breach of procedure. Notably there is no qualifying service requirement in order to bring a claim of breach of contract. Obviously you don't want to alert them to this at any stage...

 

[Tarpon]

The law was altered back in 2012 but it has been common knowledge that the reality of employment law is that up until you have 2 years under your belt you do not have the full protection afforded to those with longer service. Employers can be creative, and as ever, life ain't always fair.

Good advice offered though

I think you have stated an assumption as fact re: that most people know about the 2 year qualifying period etc. I'd be genuinely interested to see any evidence.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by employers being 'creative'. If you mean employers can pretty much dismiss any employee with under 2 years service with impunity when it suits business needs then you are quite right. That was the whole purpose of the rebalancing in favour of the employer.

I'll shut up now in case I'm instructed to stop political point scoring. A point you have notably failed to revisit.

Lastly I'm pleased you like the advice

 

[Deleted User X18H]

I have much experience of this with a recent ex employer (I contract now) who failed to follow simple procedure and ended up paying me and out of court settlement. Yes another one !

My concern would be your tenure. But if you had received a warning HR should have invited you to a meeting , you should have had the chance to be represented and you should be allowed to appeal.

That's all.