[Football] Women's Euro 2022 Final- England v Germany 31.07.2022- OFFICIAL THREAD

[Wozza]

But ultimately both games should have started at 3pm. Just right. Our traditional time in our country.

The matches weren't organised by English football authorities. England was not the 'home' team in either match.

And it's bloody rare for England to play internationals at 3pm anyway.

IMO the issues last year were caused by: post-lockdown exuberance; non-ticket-holders being allowed onto Wembley Way; very 'casual' security staff; lack of policing.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The drunken coked-up feral ratboys who sullied the final last year did not (and do not) diminish my ongoing desire to see the England mens team win a tournament. I've followed them all my football-supporting life, and watched every tournament since 1982 hoping the team will finally win something in my lifetime. I'm not going to abandon that just because of a selection of f*cking pricks (as Jill would say) who latch on to the national team.

I'm chuffed the Lionesses won the Euros, they've done us all proud. But I just don't have anything like the same level of investment in the womens game, it doesn't matter as much to me.

I feel the opposite. Supporter behaviour, and many of the players being entitled dickheads (or just dickheads), has pushed me away from the mens national team. The women's team, and everything surrounding them, has been an absolute breath of fresh air; it's something I feel can get behind, enjoy, and want to be part of.

 

[Hotchilidog]

The issues were caused by people being utter di*cks.

The authorities deserve criticism for not adequately preparing for what was entirely predictable bad behaviour (why no huge fan park for the final away from Wembley for example?). However a large number of utter twats took it upon themselves to turn what should have been a great day into an utter shambles.

A complete contrast to fan behaviour in the Women's Euros which was exemplary. It is possible to enjoy a momentous occasion without behaving so badly.

 

[Bry Nylon]

I feel the opposite. Supporter behaviour, and many of the players being entitled dickheads (or just dickheads), has pushed me away from the mens national team. The women's team, and everything surrounding them, has been an absolute breath of fresh air; it's something I feel can get behind, enjoy, and want to be part of.

As the dad of a 12 year old girl, the other reason I’m more and more attracted to the womens game is the players (all of them - not just the England squad) are great role models. I get more and more concerned by the imbalance in ‘what a women should look like’ images that my daughter is exposed to, with filtered selfies and size 6/8 women being held up as icons to aspire to, with all the physical and mental health issues that can bring.

Women footballers have normal, healthy bodies, a healthy relationship with nutrition and fitness, a focus on the team rather than the individual plus they look like they have a damn good time when they win too. And if my daughter picks up a few interpersonal skills from Jill Scott and shouts “you ****ing prick!” at anyone who pisses her off, well, I’ll be even more delighted.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

As the dad of a 12 year old girl, the other reason I’m more and more attracted to the womens game is the players (all of them - not just the England squad) are great role models. I get more and more concerned by the imbalance in ‘what a women should look like’ images that my daughter is exposed to, with filtered selfies and size 6/8 women being held up as icons to aspire to, with all the physical and mental health issues that can bring.

Women footballers have normal, healthy bodies, a healthy relationship with nutrition and fitness, a focus on the team rather than the individual plus they look like they have a damn good time when they win too. And if my daughter picks up a few interpersonal skills from Jill Scott and shouts “you ****ing prick!” at anyone who pisses her off, well, I’ll be even more delighted.

Good points. So much positivity, in so many different areas.

 

[Gwylan]

As the dad of a 12 year old girl, the other reason I’m more and more attracted to the womens game is the players (all of them - not just the England squad) are great role models. I get more and more concerned by the imbalance in ‘what a women should look like’ images that my daughter is exposed to, with filtered selfies and size 6/8 women being held up as icons to aspire to, with all the physical and mental health issues that can bring.

Women footballers have normal, healthy bodies, a healthy relationship with nutrition and fitness, a focus on the team rather than the individual plus they look like they have a damn good time when they win too. And if my daughter picks up a few interpersonal skills from Jill Scott and shouts “you ****ing prick!” at anyone who pisses her off, well, I’ll be even more delighted.

Absolutely. It makes a refreshing change to see normal female bodies being celebrated. It's something we certainly see in our rugby team, it's done wonders for girls' self-esteem and their confidence.

 

[Easy 10]

I feel the opposite. Supporter behaviour, and many of the players being entitled dickheads (or just dickheads), has pushed me away from the mens national team. The women's team, and everything surrounding them, has been an absolute breath of fresh air; it's something I feel can get behind, enjoy, and want to be part of.

On the whole I think the dickhead ratio in this current England squad is pretty low, there's certainly no one player I actively dislike - and even if there was, would that be reason enough to turn my back on watching my country compete ? Nope.
BHA have got some absolute helmets as fans, I've seen enough of them on trains, in pubs and at away games. Would that make me turn my back on BHA ? Nope.

The womens game is obviously enjoying a golden moment right now, and is rightly basking in the afterglow of genuine achievement and success. All the players have halo's, all the fans are lovely, lovely people who knit daisy-chains outside the stadiums and bring along home-made cupcakes for the police and stewards. Its a fun, welcoming, safe environment for all to enjoy, it'll hopefully attract lots of new fans particularly amongst the young, and thats great for all involved.

But will all that have me turning my back on the England mens team, in favour of instead immersing myself in this fresh new utopia ? Err....lets just file that under "unlikely".

 

[Stato]

Seeing The Mail's disgusting front page attempt at trying to spin this success into a culture war argument reminded me of what a modern football moment Chloe Kelly's celebration was. Its hard to understand the psychology of a player who has just scored a vital goal, but it was quite funny watching her after the ball went in. I thought it a vignette that was far more interesting for fans of football than anything that tired old hack Julie Birchall has to say, about anything, ever.

Watching the chain of events:

1) From her first effort, she get's a 'Dan Burn against City' second bite of the cherry and sticks it in the net;
2) She grabs the bottom of her shirt, presumably to lift it over her head for an uncontrolled, passion of the moment, shirt twirling celebration;
3) She has the presence of mind to let go of the bottom of her shirt and looks for a moment to be thinking 'VAR?? What about VAR?'
4) She considers that VAR is not going to intervene, and goes for it.

It was awful that VAR robbed the moment of spontaneity, but interesting that, although in the moment, she thought about VAR, she didn't also think about the automatic booking that she'd get for taking her shirt off, or, more likely knew about it and just didn't care, which makes the celebration not so much a spontaneous emotional release, but more of a performative act, like the pre-prepared celebrations that we have seen a lot over the last decade or so. If this is the case, it makes you wonder why footballers don't choose a performative act that isn't going to get them booked?

I Know this happens all the time, because, unlike Julie Birchall, I spend my time watching football, rather than frothing at the mouth about the imagined actions of a tiny and marginalised section of the population. Kelly's was a particularly good example as the thought process was virtually written on her face. Having never been in that position, I wouldn't like to say that it's because footballers are reckless or stupid, but they are definitely doing something reckless and stupid in that moment. Well, we've all done something reckless and stupid in our lives. Maybe that's what they feel the moment warrants. It was a very relatable human moment that made me smile.

 

[ozzygull]

On the whole I think the dickhead ratio in this current England squad is pretty low, there's certainly no one player I actively dislike - and even if there was, would that be reason enough to turn my back on watching my country compete ? Nope.
BHA have got some absolute helmets as fans, I've seen enough of them on trains, in pubs and at away games. Would that make me turn my back on BHA ? Nope.

The womens game is obviously enjoying a golden moment right now, and is rightly basking in the afterglow of genuine achievement and success. All the players have halo's, all the fans are lovely, lovely people who knit daisy-chains outside the stadiums and bring along home-made cupcakes for the police and stewards. Its a fun, welcoming, safe environment for all to enjoy, it'll hopefully attract lots of new fans particularly amongst the young, and thats great for all involved.

But will all that have me turning my back on the England mens team, in favour of instead immersing myself in this fresh new utopia ? Err....lets just file that under "unlikely".

Of course you should not turn your back on the England mens team, as you have invested at lot of time and effort supporting them. it's not your fault they have dickheads in the team or in the stands.

There is no law that says you can't support both amd enjoy the moment for what it is though.

If I had to chose at the begining. I would prefer the women winning this tournement then the prospect; how ever small of the Mens team winning the World Cup.

I was invested in the women's tournemnt right from the start and watched every game including the ones England were not playing in and loved every minuite, well the final had me hiding behind a cusion for most of it, but the ending was euphoric.

The only interest I will have in the Mens World Cup is looking up the result, when I remember it's on. If they win it will be good for nation and I will be pleased for everyone who's watched it and enjoys the moment.

 

[Easy 10]

Seeing The Mail's disgusting front page attempt at trying to spin this success into a culture war argument reminded me of what a modern football moment Chloe Kelly's celebration was. Its hard to understand the psychology of a player who has just scored a vital goal, but it was quite funny watching her after the ball went in. I thought it a vignette that was far more interesting for fans of football than anything that tired old hack Julie Birchall has to say, about anything, ever.

Watching the chain of events:

1) From her first effort, she get's a 'Dan Burn against City' second bite of the cherry and sticks it in the net;
2) She grabs the bottom of her shirt, presumably to lift it over her head for an uncontrolled, passion of the moment, shirt twirling celebration;
3) She has the presence of mind to let go of the bottom of her shirt and looks for a moment to be thinking 'VAR?? What about VAR?'
4) She considers that VAR is not going to intervene, and goes for it.

It was awful that VAR robbed the moment of spontaneity, but interesting that, although in the moment, she thought about VAR, she didn't also think about the automatic booking that she'd get for taking her shirt off, or, more likely knew about it and just didn't care, which makes the celebration not so much a spontaneous emotional release, but more of a performative act, like the pre-prepared celebrations that we have seen a lot over the last decade or so. If this is the case, it makes you wonder why footballers don't choose a performative act that isn't going to get them booked?

I Know this happens all the time, because, unlike Julie Birchall, I spend my time watching football, rather than frothing at the mouth about the imagined actions of a tiny and marginalised section of the population. Kelly's was a particularly good example as the thought process was virtually written on her face. Having never been in that position, I wouldn't like to say that it's because footballers are reckless or stupid, but they are definitely doing something reckless and stupid in that moment. Well, we've all done something reckless and stupid in our lives. Maybe that's what they feel the moment warrants. It was a very relatable human moment that made me smile.

Nailed it.

Suzy Wrack on Guardian Football Weekly somehow interpreted it as Kelly pausing to consider the booking, and then thought "to hell with it". Absolute bobbins. She clearly paused on ripping off her shirt to look over her shoulder first and check the lino (and potential VAR), before deciding to go for it. Spontaneous - that ain't.

Meanwhile, The Daily Mail headline shrieks: "IN A WORLD WHERE WOMENS VERY EXISTANCE IS BEING DENIED, THIS GLORIOUS SHOW OF BOLD FEMININITY CAN CHANGE THE WORLD"

It was a great celebration. But are we in danger of starting to overstate this....a tad ?

 

[Easy 10]

Of course you should not turn your back on the England mens team, as you have invested at lot of time and effort supporting them. it's not your fault they have dickheads in the team or in the stands.

There is no law that says you can't support both amd enjoy the moment for what it is though.

If I had to chose at the begining. I would prefer the women winning this tournement then the prospect; how ever small of the Mens team winning the World Cup.

I was invested in the women's tournemnt right from the start and watched every game including the ones England were not playing in and loved every minuite, well the final had me hiding behind a cusion for most of it, but the ending was euphoric.

The only interest I will have in the Mens World Cup is looking up the result, when I remember it's on. If they win it will be good for nation and I will be pleased for everyone who's watched it and enjoys the moment.

Personally I just cannot relate to that at all. For me, the (mens) World Cup is such a seismic event, it completely takes over my sporting consciousness for the whole month that its on. I gorge on the entire tournament, with the England games acting as beacons on the calendar amongst the avalanche of football that plays out on my TV. I barely miss a game.

The upcoming one in Qatar is wrong for so many reasons, and I can understand people boycotting it out of distaste for the human rights issues there. But I simply don't have the discipline, or scruples I guess, to turn my back on it. I'm going to be ALL OVER it.

The women winning the Euros was like your son passing his driving test first time.
The men winning the World Cup would be like Myleene Klass slowly unbuckling and pulling down your trousers, then a £50k winning lottery scratchcard falling out your back pocket.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Nailed it.

Suzy Wrack on Guardian Football Weekly somehow interpreted it as Kelly pausing to consider the booking, and then thought "to hell with it". Absolute bobbins. She clearly paused on ripping off her shirt to look over her shoulder first and check the lino (and potential VAR), before deciding to go for it. Spontaneous - that ain't.

Meanwhile, The Daily Mail headline shrieks: "IN A WORLD WHERE WOMENS VERY EXISTANCE IS BEING DENIED, THIS GLORIOUS SHOW OF BOLD FEMININITY CAN CHANGE THE WORLD"

It was a great celebration. But are we in danger of starting to overstate this....a tad ?

In a sport where 'get your tits out for the lads' is still sung occasionally...

 

[Brian Fantana]

My overriding emotion surrounding all of this is a tinge of sadness that the Lionesses' achievements are being framed against the 'failure' of the men's team, the difference in atmosphere at the stadium, etc etc etc. Why can't this success be celebrated for what it is rather than having to compare it to the men's game?

I've also seen a lot of people on social media being shutdown/abused for saying in perfectly rational and calm ways that they're not interested in the women's game. Some people love both versions of the sport, and that's brilliant for them. It should also be fine for people to follow just the women's or just the men's without it being turned into some sort of gender war. It's not helpful for the development of the game overall, IMO.

 

[Swansman]

Seeing The Mail's disgusting front page attempt at trying to spin this success into a culture war argument reminded me of what a modern football moment Chloe Kelly's celebration was. Its hard to understand the psychology of a player who has just scored a vital goal, but it was quite funny watching her after the ball went in. I thought it a vignette that was far more interesting for fans of football than anything that tired old hack Julie Birchall has to say, about anything, ever.

Watching the chain of events:

1) From her first effort, she get's a 'Dan Burn against City' second bite of the cherry and sticks it in the net;
2) She grabs the bottom of her shirt, presumably to lift it over her head for an uncontrolled, passion of the moment, shirt twirling celebration;
3) She has the presence of mind to let go of the bottom of her shirt and looks for a moment to be thinking 'VAR?? What about VAR?'
4) She considers that VAR is not going to intervene, and goes for it.

It was awful that VAR robbed the moment of spontaneity, but interesting that, although in the moment, she thought about VAR, she didn't also think about the automatic booking that she'd get for taking her shirt off, or, more likely knew about it and just didn't care, which makes the celebration not so much a spontaneous emotional release, but more of a performative act, like the pre-prepared celebrations that we have seen a lot over the last decade or so. If this is the case, it makes you wonder why footballers don't choose a performative act that isn't going to get them booked?

I Know this happens all the time, because, unlike Julie Birchall, I spend my time watching football, rather than frothing at the mouth about the imagined actions of a tiny and marginalised section of the population. Kelly's was a particularly good example as the thought process was virtually written on her face. Having never been in that position, I wouldn't like to say that it's because footballers are reckless or stupid, but they are definitely doing something reckless and stupid in that moment. Well, we've all done something reckless and stupid in our lives. Maybe that's what they feel the moment warrants. It was a very relatable human moment that made me smile.

Like I said just after the final, it was every bit intentional.

A tribute to Brandi Chastain. Players had been ripping off their shirts for years with no consequence but once a woman did it 1999, it took less than a year for FIFA to make it an offense. Why? Because of ****ed up conservative, puritan, sexist ideas. Man is celebrating a goal ripping his shirt off - perfectly fine, we see a bloke celebrating and thats that. Woman doing the same thing - oh it is too sexual for television, because in the minds of some the female body is just about sex. But for some women, probably Kelly included, this is just horseshit - if a bloke can do it, she can do it, without it being wrong or sexual or whatever.

Pretty sure some BBC executives were panicking, thinking about swiftly changing the program to something less dangerous and immoral than the female body, perhaps a war movie or something.

 

[Bold Seagull]

My overriding emotion surrounding all of this is a tinge of sadness that the Lionesses' achievements are being framed against the 'failure' of the men's team, the difference in atmosphere at the stadium, etc etc etc. Why can't this success be celebrated for what it is rather than having to compare it to the men's game?

I've also seen a lot of people on social media being shutdown/abused for saying in perfectly rational and calm ways that they're not interested in the women's game. Some people love both versions of the sport, and that's brilliant for them. It should also be fine for people to follow just the women's or just the men's without it being turned into some sort of gender war. It's not helpful for the development of the game overall, IMO.

The men's failures are framed against their own 56 years of failures, so you know, for those of us under 56 years old, England winning is something of a novelty. I think it would be entirely bizarre not to mention it in this context. The most famous England song is a love song to failure and the hope of success.

Don't disagree with your second point, I'm sure there are plenty of women who prefer to watch only mens football. It's not conditional that you have to like all football is it? In fact I know fans who don't really like football if truth be told, they just follow their team.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

As the dad of a 12 year old girl, the other reason I’m more and more attracted to the womens game is the players (all of them - not just the England squad) are great role models. I get more and more concerned by the imbalance in ‘what a women should look like’ images that my daughter is exposed to, with filtered selfies and size 6/8 women being held up as icons to aspire to, with all the physical and mental health issues that can bring.

Women footballers have normal, healthy bodies, a healthy relationship with nutrition and fitness, a focus on the team rather than the individual plus they look like they have a damn good time when they win too. And if my daughter picks up a few interpersonal skills from Jill Scott and shouts “you ****ing prick!” at anyone who pisses her off, well, I’ll be even more delighted.

I can see the future

Insert any of my erudite, balanced, measured, informative and insightful posts

you ****ing prick!

 

[Stato]

Like I said just after the final, it was every bit intentional.

A tribute to Brandi Chastain. Players had been ripping off their shirts for years with no consequence but once a woman did it 1999, it took less than a year for FIFA to make it an offense. Why? Because of ****ed up conservative, puritan, sexist ideas. Man is celebrating a goal ripping his shirt off - perfectly fine, we see a bloke celebrating and thats that. Woman doing the same thing - oh it is too sexual for television, because in the minds of some the female body is just about sex. But for some women, probably Kelly included, this is just horseshit - if a bloke can do it, she can do it, without it being wrong or sexual or whatever.

Pretty sure some BBC executives were panicking, thinking about swiftly changing the program to something less dangerous and immoral than the female body, perhaps a war movie or something.

Good knowledge as usual. I wasn't aware of the back story and now read that Chastain has sent her congratulations. I take back 'reckless and stupid' and replace it with 'sticking it to the man.' Good on you Chloe.

 

[The Wookiee]

Good knowledge as usual. I wasn't aware of the back story and now read that Chastain has sent her congratulations. I take back 'reckless and stupid' and replace it with 'sticking it to the man.' Good on you Chloe.

I heard her say the reason she took her shirt of was to replicate Bobby Zamora’s play off final goal celebration for QPR -
She is big QPR fan and it was that BZ moment that help inspire her to do well in the game

 

[Bry Nylon]

My overriding emotion surrounding all of this is a tinge of sadness that the Lionesses' achievements are being framed against the 'failure' of the men's team, the difference in atmosphere at the stadium, etc etc etc. Why can't this success be celebrated for what it is rather than having to compare it to the men's game?.

Endorse this view (although my over-riding emotion wasn’t one of sadness). But just to be clear, or perhaps to make the same point from an alternative stance, the comparisons I saw during the tournament only went in one direction. If there was a thread on here being used by people genuinely wanting to discuss the game on its own merits, it wouldn’t be long before it got sidetracked with comments like’ ‘the goals are too big’ ‘the goalkeeping’s a joke’ ‘non-league at best’ ‘in mens football that’s never going in’ ‘under 10s standard goalkeeping’ etc etc.

Seems a bit rich if some people are crying foul if a few unwelcome comparisons are now being lobbed back in the other direction.

 

[Brian Fantana]

Endorse this view (although my over-riding emotion wasn’t one of sadness). But just to be clear, or perhaps to make the same point from an alternative stance, the comparisons I saw during the tournament only went in one direction. If there was a thread on here being used by people genuinely wanting to discuss the game on its own merits, it wouldn’t be long before it got sidetracked with comments like’ ‘the goals are too big’ ‘the goalkeeping’s a joke’ ‘non-league at best’ ‘in mens football that’s never going in’ ‘under 10s standard goalkeeping’ etc etc.

Seems a bit rich if some people are crying foul if a few unwelcome comparisons are now being lobbed back in the other direction.

Agreed. You've made the point much better than I did! It is about the achievement being celebrated in its own right, and by its own standards. Any sort of comparisons with the men's game descend into the kind of example comments that you highlighted.