[Misc] Will the Unions bring everyone to their knees?

[WhingForPresident]

He’ll have nothing to say, some genuinely useful technological advancements that are in use in Europe, haven’t been introduced because yes you guessed it. The government can’t be bothered to invest in it through Network Rail.

Care to respond?

 

[A1X]

The fact NR can't roster individuals for jobs, they have to be in teams, where it can end up with 9 people being rostered to do a job one person can do. Installation of sensors for MSTs which would send readings back to base if they go wrong to prevent the need for bi-annual manual inspections. The inability for teams to cross geographical boundaries or share vans/equipment. Just a few examples. Any change is a straight no from the RMT. If they were less resistant to change, a compromise could be more easily met.

The geographic boundaries are part of the setup of devolution and of NR within that (NR Scotland reports to Holyrood, not Westminster), nothing to do with the RMT. Although I’m pretty certain the crane and team which helped clear up the Stonehaven derailment two years ago came from Toton.

 

[jackalbion]

I should add, before I get 'ooh Tory' thrown at me again, yeah I think the government washing their hands of this is BS, and I don't totally disagree with the decision of the RMT to take this action, but they have to be more flexible in modernising practices for a deal to be reached, and that does not have to mean compulsory redundancies or a compromise on safety.

The Government has screwed so much of it up though, you only have to look at the Department of Transport’s ordering of the Class 700 units on Thameslink as an example. The department is playing some crazy game of brinkmanship in my opinion of reducing the service to terrible levels. The Coastways out of Brighton used to have 6 trains an hour on each route, now that is 4 on the west, and 3 on the east, with some stations getting as low as one. I agree that some modernisation takes a long time to be implemented but that is more down to the government than unions.

I also think that is a fair comment, but I know who are the biggest issue to deal with and that’s the department.

 

[jackalbion]

Care to respond?

ETCS being a big one, in which they have been very slow with.

 

[WhingForPresident]

The geographic boundaries are part of the setup of devolution and of NR within that (NR Scotland reports to Holyrood, not Westminster), nothing to do with the RMT. Although I’m pretty certain the crane and team which helped clear up the Stonehaven derailment two years ago came from Toton.

That's one of the three examples off the top of my head.

Yeah, fair points though I am more talking about say, if you have a fault at KGX a team from down the road at Euston can't go and fix it, which probably is more of a fault of devolution. But you clearly actually know what you're talking about unlike a lot of people in this thread who just come out with tribal nonsense to suit political agendas. It's a shame we can't just have disagreements without resorting to name-calling and nonsense more often.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I think the rail union will lose this and badly. Manoeuvring to bring in other completely unrelated sectors in a quasi general strike, will back fire.

The vast majority of folk now have other options to carry out their working day. The vast majority of folk aren’t sympathetic union members. It’ll piss people off.

[I’m all for lower and lesser paid people getting decent pay rises and adequate financial help through this cost of living crisis. A carte blanche demand for EVERY unionised person in the industry, won’t sit well with much of the public].

I think a lot of people are minded that the money spent and borrowed to keep people in their jobs, the fuel crisis and the knock on high inflation has been almost unavoidable by any government. Yes, money was wasted loads of it and sure a lot will be corrupt, in reality though this wasted money would have very little effect on what's happening now.

There's a huge amount of people just happy they still have a job after having a huge amount of time away.

This is seen by the old school unions as time to make a stand, one they will end up paying for due to their single mindedness.

I'm all for protecting jobs getting justifiable pay and so on but the has to be reason on all sides. There's a lot of rail workers who many are surprised, get good pay, I'll counter this by saying their plenty that don't. I do wonder what would happen if they were given the option to give those under x a bigger rise than those over x.

Also asking the engineers to cross dress, sorry, trade is nothing new. HWT in an earlier post stated aircraft being prepared for flight and the H & S would never be questioned. I'm afraid it very much was back in the 90's when the CAA changed the licensing of engineers bringing in a scheme not dissimilar to America. This caused no end of consternation and we were all expected to cross trade. Many including me felt our trades were being downgraded but it allowed the industry to reduce the amount of people and levels of accountability. Looking back it made sense, when the defined trades first existed the aircraft needed a higher degree of engineering and diagnosing. Technology advancements though meant not only were aircraft becoming far more reliable but could self diagnose. Aircraft like modern cars need far less maintenance to stay safe. I see the railways the same way.

I'm sure there's not many type setters in jobs these days, just a thought.

 

[HalfaSeatOn]

Anyone who stands up against the Johnsons and Rees Moggs of this world gets a thumbs up from me.

 

[WhingForPresident]

The Government has screwed so much of it up though, you only have to look at the Department of Transport’s ordering of the Class 700 units on Thameslink as an example. The department is playing some crazy game of brinkmanship in my opinion of reducing the service to terrible levels. The Coastways out of Brighton used to have 6 trains an hour on each route, now that is 4 on the west, and 3 on the east, with some stations getting as low as one. I agree that some modernisation takes a long time to be implemented but that is more down to the government than unions.

I also think that is a fair comment, but I know who are the biggest issue to deal with and that’s the department.

Oh it is. The Hitachi's on GWR as well...

Shapps washing his hands of it the other day was outrageous. The fact the government aren't even prepared to come to the table says a lot.

 

[jackalbion]

That's one of the three examples off the top of my head.

Yeah, fair points though I am more talking about say, if you have a fault at KGX a team from down the road at Euston can't go and fix it, which probably is more of a fault of devolution. But you clearly actually know what you're talking about unlike a lot of people in this thread who just come out with tribal nonsense to suit political agendas. It's a shame we can't just have disagreements without resorting to name-calling and nonsense more often.

With all respect though with the Kings Cross and Euston thing, is that not the point of route knowledge which can go far down to Engineer level. An engineer will learn the Kings Cross route so would be much better placed to fix it quickly, rather than an unfamiliar Engineer from Euston.

 

[portlock seagull]

It’s such a shame we got here as it was going so well. This is wrong on two levels;

1. Investment in new transport infrastructure is never, ever “wasted” unless it’s linking places people / goods don’t want to go or for outdated technology (for example, spending a billion pounds to build a canal). It always, always pays for itself over the years that follow it’s opening, maybe not immediately but it will. Thameslink has. HS1 has. Crossrail will.

2. HS2 is very, very much needed. It’s needed right now, truth be told it was needed a decade ago. For reasons of capacity and the environment.

1. Arguable about anything, though I think you knew meaning behind the word if not turn of phrase in the context
2. If I was in a minority of 1, or even a minority, you might have a point.

Also note how, unlike your reply, I’ve avoided using a patronising tone.

 

[WhingForPresident]

With all respect though with the Kings Cross and Euston thing, is that not the point of route knowledge which can go far down to Engineer level. An engineer will learn the Kings Cross route so would be much better placed to fix it quickly, rather than an unfamiliar Engineer from Euston.

Depends on the fault I guess! But I think the structural changes every few years or so haven't done anyone any favours, and I'm not totally convinced GBR will fix these (not that the role of GBR has any clarity!)

 

[clapham_gull]

The Government has screwed so much of it up though, you only have to look at the Department of Transport’s ordering of the Class 700 units on Thameslink as an example. The department is playing some crazy game of brinkmanship in my opinion of reducing the service to terrible levels. The Coastways out of Brighton used to have 6 trains an hour on each route, now that is 4 on the west, and 3 on the east, with some stations getting as low as one. I agree that some modernisation takes a long time to be implemented but that is more down to the government than unions.

I also think that is a fair comment, but I know who are the biggest issue to deal with and that’s the department.

I also find it hilarious when the political classes attack the public sector (or private companies they deem as acting like them) regarding modernisation, efficiency and productivity.

They really need to look at themselves. By definition a cabinet minister is usually a "generalist" in charge of something they know little about, unable to execute effective leadership and predominantly concerned with keeping their position.

They often like to pit themselves against the civil service but are usually just an extension of it.

 

[darkwolf666]

I think a lot of people are minded that the money spent and borrowed to keep people in their jobs, the fuel crisis and the knock on high inflation has been almost unavoidable by any government. Yes, money was wasted loads of it and sure a lot will be corrupt, in reality though this wasted money would have very little effect on what's happening now.

There's a huge amount of people just happy they still have a job after having a huge amount of time away.

This is seen by the old school unions as time to make a stand, one they will end up paying for due to their single mindedness.

I'm all for protecting jobs getting justifiable pay and so on but the has to be reason on all sides. There's a lot of rail workers who many are surprised, get good pay, I'll counter this by saying their plenty that don't. I do wonder what would happen if they were given the option to give those under x a bigger rise than those over x.

Also asking the engineers to cross dress, sorry, trade is nothing new. HWT in an earlier post stated aircraft being prepared for flight and the H & S would never be questioned. I'm afraid it very much was back in the 90's when the CAA changed the licensing of engineers bringing in a scheme not dissimilar to America. This caused no end of consternation and we were all expected to cross trade. Many including me felt our trades were being downgraded but it allowed the industry to reduce the amount of people and levels of accountability. Looking back it made sense, when the defined trades first existed the aircraft needed a higher degree of engineering and diagnosing. Technology advancements though meant not only were aircraft becoming far more reliable but could self diagnose. Aircraft like modern cars need far less maintenance to stay safe. I see the railways the same way.

I'm sure there's not many type setters in jobs these days, just a thought.

I used to be a typesetter, but the Eddie Shah / Margaret Thatcher era and determination to break the print unions soon sorted that out!

 

[jackalbion]

Oh it is. The Hitachi's on GWR as well...

Shapps washing his hands of it the other day was outrageous. The fact the government aren't even prepared to come to the table says a lot.

I think as well, GTR’s contract in this area has made their position impossible, I think the government need to come forward and say their position on rail travel going forward, because for me personally there seems to be an concerted effort to drive down usage.

 

[jackalbion]

Depends on the fault I guess! But I think the structural changes every few years or so haven't done anyone any favours, and I'm not totally convinced GBR will fix these (not that the role of GBR has any clarity!)

We both definitely agree on GBR

 

[Madafwo]

But it's not the same. The UK ended up with very few miners (which made sense as the mines closed). But the UK needs train drivers. So there is no "Thatcher moment".

This has nothing to do with drivers, RMT do not represent the driving grades, that is ASLEF.

RMT represent almost every other role on the railway, very few, if any, earn as much as a mainline driver would which are the wage numbers being pushed by those who lean more to the right of the political spectrum shall we say (I'm not suggesting you lean any way, just for clarity).

This is about everyone else who you don't normally hear about on the railway, the people who clean, fix, signal, the trains and infrastructure they run on, pretty much all the customer facing roles as well. People who were lauded by the government two years ago for keeping the country moving during the pandemic.

You only need to look at the way the government handled the P&O situation to this one, it was good PR to support the P&O workers but it is even better to bash the railway workers so guess what they're doing.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I used to be a typesetter, but the Eddie Shah / Margaret Thatcher era and determination to break the print unions soon sorted that out!

Nothing to do with outdated labour intensive technology then.

The job market changes we need to adapt to those changes.

 

[rogersix]

View attachment 149044

what is this?

 

[The Clamp]

what is this?

That is the sound of the bottom of the barrel being scraped.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I also find it hilarious when the political classes attack the public sector (or private companies they deem as acting like them) regarding modernisation, efficiency and productivity.

They really need to look at themselves. By definition a cabinet minister is usually a "generalist" in charge of something they know little about, unable to execute effective leadership and predominantly concerned with keeping their position.

They often like to pit themselves against the civil service but are usually just an extension of it.

or bully it