[Misc] Wild variation in building quotes

[Wrong-Direction]

If I got offered a day rate I would go to the cafe for lunch, if I’m doing a fixed price job I bring sandwiches and a flask.

I only ever give out estimates, started a bathroom in southwick this week and all the walls came down with the tiles [emoji849]
Schools / leisure centres pay by the hour. I was working at Blatchington mill school for pretty much the entire summer holiday fitting 31 outside sinks so the kids can wash their hands!

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

 

[Questions]

If you haven't got this already, ask them to split the quote down in to the relevant sections of work.

When we use to win council contracts they would often ask for breakdowns. It’s best for both parties on larger contracts. You don’t want a company taking the piss ( you wouldn’t dare do that if you are on a tender list) but you don’t want them pricing 30k too low.

 

[BN9 BHA]

I only ever give out estimates, started a bathroom in southwick this week and all the walls came down with the tiles [emoji849]

TIP- Use a club hammer and bolster, hammer and old wood chisel or an attachment for your SDS drill to remove tiles.
Never use explosives

 

[Questions]

buyer beware!. 3 years ago i had to have major works done on my home which was declared not fit to live in due to roof collapsing and gas supply being 75 years old etc. I got a new mortgage and the terms were that we HAD to take the cheapest quote. `Long story short my father was ill whilst the work was done so had to trust the foreman to oversee all the works. came back after 2 months and was hit with a mountain of snags which took another 3 months for them to complete.

We had full rewire of electrics done but since we didnt specify in the contract that he should put the wiring in the walls he just ran cables down the outside and covered in plastic surround. To acheive this he took big chunks of our lovely coving in the ceiling out. Didnt do any making good of holes created when removing old cables etc - u get the drift. So our 6k spend for the rewire is likely to cost (when we get round to doing it) another 5k to redecorate every room in the house.

Then we had brand new upvc windows fitted. whilst house is warmer after three revisits we still get water penetration from above the window frame where inside plaster has come off. Due to covid we now cant anyone to come back and make good this 3 year old issue. i just hope they are still in business when things get back to sort form of normality!

And to add insult to injury during the works they used some of our tools (step ladder, hammers etc) which they took with them when they left! - by the time i realised it was too late!.

So, you need to dot the i's and cross the t's when you are dealing with that amount of cost

Finally one recommendation if you can. Get the builders to tell u what supplies they need and go buy them yourself. They'll tell u its £15 for a roll of wallpaper and go and buy it with their discount for £6 and pocket the rest. if you cant be hassled ensure they provide you with receipts to show cost of materials.

Good luck.!

I borrowed a woman’s broom at work today.........

 

[mikeyjh]

Approach we used was to agree a daily rate per man day re labour - this was invoiced separately on a monthly basis

Quite easy to keep track of how many on site each day so always knew what this monthly fee would be

Then separate monthly invoice re materials and plant hire etc

Could ask them to split quote into materials and labour and agree a man day rate per labour - you get a saving if they complete it quicker - they are covered if un forseen issues arise that neither party could have predicted or expected

Above was all for main builder - we hired electrician and other specialist trades separately and paid them direct

Yeah, that's really likely to happen! No offence but that's not great advice IMO - Get a price, always.

£68K - Hasn’t got much on and is desperate for the job.
£165K - Doesn’t need the work and has plenty going on, but will find time to start the work ( then disappear to another job(s) if you agree to the price.
Or he doesn’t like you so he’s priced the job very high.

Have a look at the middle prices.

That's the long and short of it but I wouldn't rule out the low price.

 

[WATFORD zero]

When I used to be in business (a long time ago !) we started to offer 'open book pricing'. We would tell the client the estimates, day rates, materials and PROFIT ! We found that if things didn't go to plan (and this was technology and systems, so vey rarely did) clients were more open to splitting the difference. I got talked into it initially but surprisingly, found it worked in the vast majority of cases if you had a good relationship.

The last big building project I had (2 floor extension 25 years ago) we did the same thing. It helped that it was a mate, but he gave me materials, labour, profit etc, I allowed for a reasonable overrun and although that changed during the build (some of it, me being picky, some of it, unexpected issues) we agreed differences at each stage, ensured he got his profit, and it worked out to both of our satisfaction.

Maybe I was lucky or maybe honesty really is the best policy

 

[Machiavelli]

In 2007 we received quotes for the very same projects on our home, ranging from £25k+VAT to £80k+VAT.

I’d created very detailed spec sheets to try to cover all bases, reviewed by a construction project manager mate.

We went with the cheapest quote, both sides signed a basic JCT contract, so they were bound by the price.

I think they regretted that optimistic price.

I caught them out for some sly short cuts, which I rectified, but we agreed that I wouldn’t pay a penny for all the variations.

JCT: is that a Joint Contracts Tribunal?

 

[Weststander]

JCT: is that a Joint Contracts Tribunal?

Yes. The blank contract cost a few quid and was just half a dozen pages.
https://www.jctltd.co.uk/product/building-contract-for-a-home-owner-occupier

Their model contracts cover everything from that, to voluminous versions for huge construction contracts.

 

[Machiavelli]

Thanks [MENTION=27447]Goldstone1976[/MENTION] for starting this thread. With a bit of luck, we'll be needing to use some builders when our sale eventually goes through. We're hoping to extend the kitchen, and perhaps to dig down underneath the extended area to have a cellar/extra-storage space. We know a couple of reliable builders, but would be grateful for any advice.

 

[Blue3]

I've got four builders to give quotes against a 3-page written spec for some work on the new gaff. The spec given to them was identical.

The quotes I've got are: £68k, £99k, £134k, £165k.

Wow. Now I'm scratching my head - I have never had such wildly differing quotes and am a bit flummoxed...

My first thought is what are the sizes of building companies you are approaching for these quotations as even at £68k is likley to be outside the means of smaller firms and at £165k you would expect to go to companies of size of Bramber to win

 

[Justice]

buyer beware!. 3 years ago i had to have major works done on my home which was declared not fit to live in due to roof collapsing and gas supply being 75 years old etc. I got a new mortgage and the terms were that we HAD to take the cheapest quote. `Long story short my father was ill whilst the work was done so had to trust the foreman to oversee all the works. came back after 2 months and was hit with a mountain of snags which took another 3 months for them to complete.

We had full rewire of electrics done but since we didnt specify in the contract that he should put the wiring in the walls he just ran cables down the outside and covered in plastic surround. To acheive this he took big chunks of our lovely coving in the ceiling out. Didnt do any making good of holes created when removing old cables etc - u get the drift. So our 6k spend for the rewire is likely to cost (when we get round to doing it) another 5k to redecorate every room in the house.

Then we had brand new upvc windows fitted. whilst house is warmer after three revisits we still get water penetration from above the window frame where inside plaster has come off. Due to covid we now cant anyone to come back and make good this 3 year old issue. i just hope they are still in business when things get back to sort form of normality!

And to add insult to injury during the works they used some of our tools (step ladder, hammers etc) which they took with them when they left! - by the time i realised it was too late!.

So, you need to dot the i's and cross the t's when you are dealing with that amount of cost

Finally one recommendation if you can. Get the builders to tell u what supplies they need and go buy them yourself. They'll tell u its £15 for a roll of wallpaper and go and buy it with their discount for £6 and pocket the rest. if you cant be hassled ensure they provide you with receipts to show cost of materials.

Good luck.!

Whilst I feel your pain and unfortunately you employed shoddy cowboys, remember we run a business we are entitled to a charge a mark up on materials as we have to collect them. Another point your Rewire sounds shocking (no pun intended)

 

[Whitley Bayster]

I've got four builders to give quotes against a 3-page written spec for some work on the new gaff. The spec given to them was identical.

The quotes I've got are: £68k, £99k, £134k, £165k.

Wow. Now I'm scratching my head - I have never had such wildly differing quotes and am a bit flummoxed...

I'm an architect I see I lot of this. My advice is simply don't entertain the thought of touching the cheapest one. They are trying to buy the project. They will try and hit you for extras throughout the project and the relationship could get difficult. Before ypu know it the cost willl approcah the next one up the list. The highest one is to busy and doesn't want the work unless it makes super profit. Look closely at the middle two they are likely to have priced it a bit more accurately. A reasonable rate for extension work depending upon level of complexity and size is around £2k per square metre. It can be lower be its sensible position to take. That may signal which of the two is the appropriate cost. Give yourself a contingency to play with (£5 - 10k). Older properties always have the chance of revealing hidden issues once opened up.

 

[zefarelly]

When I used to be in business (a long time ago !) we started to offer 'open book pricing'. We would tell the client the estimates, day rates, materials and PROFIT ! We found that if things didn't go to plan (and this was technology and systems, so vey rarely did) clients were more open to splitting the difference. I got talked into it initially but surprisingly, found it worked in the vast majority of cases if you had a good relationship.

The last big building project I had (2 floor extension 25 years ago) we did the same thing. It helped that it was a mate, but he gave me materials, labour, profit etc, I allowed for a reasonable overrun and although that changed during the build (some of it, me being picky, some of it, unexpected issues) we agreed differences at each stage, ensured he got his profit, and it worked out to both of our satisfaction.

Maybe I was lucky or maybe honesty really is the best policy

Thats kind of how I work with engines . . . list costs, labout time/rate and a margin . . . . If the customer supplies a donor engine to rebuild/retune and its no good we carry on and find another between us.

Its never been profitable but kept me ticking over for years.

 

[Goldstone1976]

I'm an architect I see I lot of this. My advice is simply don't entertain the thought of touching the cheapest one. They are trying to buy the project. They will try and hit you for extras throughout the project and the relationship could get difficult. Before ypu know it the cost willl approcah the next one up the list. The highest one is to busy and doesn't want the work unless it makes super profit. Look closely at the middle two they are likely to have priced it a bit more accurately. A reasonable rate for extension work depending upon level of complexity and size is around £2k per square metre. It can be lower be its sensible position to take. That may signal which of the two is the appropriate cost. Give yourself a contingency to play with (£5 - 10k). Older properties always have the chance of revealing hidden issues once opened up.

Helpful, thanks.

It’s not an extension; it’s mostly refurb work - some on the main house (Georgian, so definitely ‘older’), most on a Victorian separate building that my Mum will live in. There’s a bit of ground works involved - moving soil away from a wall (4’ of soil), and creating proper drainage.

I’ve decided to go with the higher of the two middle quotes - I excluded the top and bottom, and just preferred the guy I’m going with over the other one. He’s agreed to be on-site every day on the tools. I plan to try to hold him to it.

Thanks to all for your thoughts.

 

[mikeyjh]

Whilst I feel your pain and unfortunately you employed shoddy cowboys, remember we run a business we are entitled to a charge a mark up on materials as we have to collect them. Another point your Rewire sounds shocking (no pun intended)

Not spoiling for a fight but that's absolutely fine if that's what you communicate to the client - If you are just imposing your own mark up without discussing it then that's dishonest and you're ripping off the client.

 

[Baldseagull]

Not spoiling for a fight but that's absolutely fine if that's what you communicate to the client - If you are just imposing your own mark up without discussing it then that's dishonest and you're ripping off the client.

I disagree, the customer will expect me to be responsible for the quality of the materials if I am supplying them, deal with any issues if stuff needs to be returned, arrange for delivery or collection etc. a 10% mark up is more than fair.
If the customer wants to go shopping for all the gear, pay up front for materials and is happy to collect or get delivered, and happy for me to charge for a cancelled day if the shit they have sourced is not fit for purpose, then fine, but experience of which products work, where is best priced, and establishing account relationships to get best pricing has come at a cost to me.

 

[zefarelly]

10% mark up is not enough IMO . . . a business needs a margin of around 25% to operate and avoid loss.

If I take a cylinder block to be rebored it'll cost me £150, takes me an hour to drop it off and an hour to collect it, also it needs cleaning ad preparing as well as the specifics of the rebore detail.

buying a few lengths of wood and sticking 10% on is nothing . . . . you need to know the sizes, lengths, quantities, specification, delivery, be there to inspect on delivery and then store. quantity is everything here . . . . smaller projects often demand 30-35% margin. 20 years ago I used to design/tender for logistics projects . . . up to £5-6m projects, we could go below 22% margin without board approval.

 

[Doonhamer7]

We had a 2 storey extension three years ago, three quotes 2 very similar and one 50% more. All quotes would only give provisional sum for electrics (they all said you’ll change your mind and it was a subcontract anyway) and for new en-suite (we hadn’t chosen items/tiles so fair enough). Had to say builder was excellent, even Building Regs guy from the council stated at the end - he could see that this was a high quality job. We had a couple of extra items / claim but both were justifiable. In fact I feel builder could have claimed for more had he wanted too. So if anyone wants a recommendation for a builder in Horsham let me know.

 

[Justice]

Not spoiling for a fight but that's absolutely fine if that's what you communicate to the client - If you are just imposing your own mark up without discussing it then that's dishonest and you're ripping off the client.

If I’ve sent you a quotation £5k for a full rewire all labour and materials included as per the agreed spec then what’s it to you if I’m making say £400 profit on material mark up You’ve agreed a price with me for the contract.

 

[SIMMO SAYS]

I disagree, the customer will expect me to be responsible for the quality of the materials if I am supplying them, deal with any issues if stuff needs to be returned, arrange for delivery or collection etc. a 10% mark up is more than fair.
If the customer wants to go shopping for all the gear, pay up front for materials and is happy to collect or get delivered, and happy for me to charge for a cancelled day if the shit they have sourced is not fit for purpose, then fine, but experience of which products work, where is best priced, and establishing account relationships to get best pricing has come at a cost to me.

This all day long.
I recently had to have four heavy back to wall toilet pans redelivered for my own shower room. Each one was smashed or cracked. I had to dispose of the four pans at my own cost. Victorian Plumbing were useless at dealing with the problem and have therefore lost thousands of pounds of our custom. Nearly every order we had from them had damaged goods. So we now let the customer choose and pay for their items.