Why do English born and bred "Indians" support India?

[User removed 4]

Oh, the old Tebbitt test again! Much as I dislike the ultra right wing old former trade union (BALPA) leader, I think he wasn't far wrong on this. It is a generational thing, though - but when you start getting through to the third or fourth generation, it's a bit worrying if it doesn't happen. Descendants of Normans and Saxons call themselves English and / or British - integration worked particularly well there because old William the Conk knew a thing or two, and actively encouraged inter-marrying. Descendants of later waves of Jews and Huguenots now regard themselves as English - as do many descendants of POWs who opted not to be repatriated at the end of WW II.
If it doesn't eventually happen with later waves of immigrants, the future doesn't look good, and multi-culturalism, as opposed to integration, will have failed.

It wont happen as long as some people continue to avoid the truth.

 

[larus]

Then you'd be wrong, it turns a country into nothing more than a vast transit shed with little common ground or shared history, if this weakness disguised as tolerance continues then there is a lot of trouble in store for future generations of this country , just look at the balkans.

No, I wouldn't be wrong. Talk about poetic licence. We're talking about a relativey small percentage of immigration/emmigration, and you twist it into 'turning a country'. Yeah, right.

 

[ngood77]

One of my grandfathers was Welsh, but I'm English and I support England if they play Wales at any sport.

So why are there thousands of English born at Lords supporting India?

Can of worms duly opened....

Pity the same attitude isn't demonstrated every Paddy's day...

 

[The Merry Prankster]

It wont happen as long as some people continue to avoid the truth.

Do you honestly think that there is even the slightest possibility of reversing the tide? I think you are delusional if you do. It's gone, ship sailed.

 

[User removed 4]

Do you honestly think that there is even the slightest possibility of reversing the tide? I think you are delusional if you do. It's gone, ship sailed.

What do you think I was trying to say?

 

[The Merry Prankster]

What do you think I was trying to say?

I was actually referring to your, fairly oft stated, opposition to non integrated immigration/(the failed)multi cultural experiment rather than any specific point on this thread. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

 

[User removed 4]

I was actually referring to your, fairly oft stated, opposition to non integrated immigration/(the failed)multi cultural experiment rather than any specific point on this thread. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

Ah, I see, you're probably right, if you are then i personally think there is a whole lot of trouble in store for future generations.

 

[BadFish]

sorry, i haven't had time to read the who thread. But surely this has something to do with influence in your life. My Son is 6 he is born and bread in Australia, ask him which football team he supports he says Brighton, National football team he says Brighton and in the Ashes he supports England. Why? well because I am brainwashing him, I am the one he talks to about football, i am the one who watches games of football and cricket with him and gives him is perspective and it i me and my side of the family who buy football kits for him. Christ he even hate Palace this boy......one day asking me "Daddy, what is a Palace?"

I'm not sure if this will always be the case because other influences will start to pressure him (I have taken him to see the Socceroos) but i think he will grow up an England fan (poor bastard) and certainly a Brighton fan. So maybe it is as simple as that the people who have the most sporting influence on these people supported India.

 

[User removed 4]

sorry, i haven't had time to read the who thread. But surely this has something to do with influence in your life. My Son is 6 he is born and bread in Australia, ask him which football team he supports he says Brighton, National football team he says Brighton and in the Ashes he supports England. Why? well because I am brainwashing him, I am the one he talks to about football, i am the one who watches games of football and cricket with him and gives him is perspective and it i me and my side of the family who buy football kits for him. Christ he even hate Palace this boy......one day asking me "Daddy, what is a Palace?"

I'm not sure if this will always be the case because other influences will start to pressure him (I have taken him to see the Socceroos) but i think he will grow up an England fan (poor bastard) and certainly a Brighton fan. So maybe it is as simple as that the people who have the most sporting influence on these people supported India.

I think you're wrong to do it, and it's not something i'd do, but I wouldnt be too sure about him growing up to be an england fan, i've found there isnt the same type of bend down and grab your ankles style of " acceptance " of what i consider pisstaking over there, i found aussies will tell you straight to f*** off somewhere else if you want to supportb them that much.

 

[BadFish]

I think you're wrong to do it, and it's not something i'd do, but I wouldnt be too sure about him growing up to be an england fan, i've found there isnt the same type of bend down and grab your ankles style of " acceptance " of what i consider pisstaking over there, i found aussies will tell you straight to f*** off somewhere else if you want to supportb them that much.

Funny because the Aussies I know are very accepting of other supporters. But then maybe its actually difficult to rely on such broad generalization about 20 million people.

I would be happy for him to make his choice*, but the influence i have at a young age cannot be discounted. As i say i have taken him to Australia Soccer games and will take him to see Melbourne Heart, but it is obvious to him that I am more passionate about Brighton and England.

As long as he doesn't choose Palace or Man U

 

[Lady Whistledown]

It is a generational thing, though - but when you start getting through to the third or fourth generation, it's a bit worrying if it doesn't happen.
If it doesn't eventually happen with later waves of immigrants, the future doesn't look good, and multi-culturalism, as opposed to integration, will have failed.

Why is it "worrying" though? We're only talking about a game of cricket here. It's not as though those supporters you're talking about are plotting to overthrow the UK government. I've not seen any aggression or cause for concern in the way they've gone about cheering on India...and in fairness, the passion they tend to have for the game results in them being incredibly knowledgeable and generous in their applause for good cricket, be it from English or Indian players.

Perhaps there's also the sense that it's the one chance that British Asians of Indian heritage get to express their sporting pride too, because with all due respect, the wider sporting world isn't exactly overrun with Indian superstars. I think a lot of these guys will quite happily cheer on England in many sports, and even in cricket if they're playing someone other than their ancestral nation, but when it comes to the Test matches, it's a rare opportunity to get excited about someone from their own background. What's wrong with that? It's a game.

The other point that seems to have been missed is that we don't know how many Asians in the crowd at Lords are British born Asians (not that it matters a jot IMHO). For all you know, some may have flown over from Mumbai or Delhi specifically to watch this series. Or they may be Indian born, class themselves as Indian, but just happen to live and work here for now. There's no reason for any of these guys to cheer anyone other than their home nation.

 

[alan partridge]

I think you're wrong to do it, and it's not something i'd do, but I wouldnt be too sure about him growing up to be an england fan, i've found there isnt the same type of bend down and grab your ankles style of " acceptance " of what i consider pisstaking over there, i found aussies will tell you straight to f*** off somewhere else if you want to supportb them that much.

who are you to say he's wrong?

He's his son's father. His son is 6. Alongside his mother the biggest influence in his small world, and when it comes to football his main (only) point of contact. I imagine the 'brainwashing' comment is very much tongue in cheek and he's just supporting his teams as he always has. I know I'd buy my son a Brighton shirt whether we lived in Brighton or not. What they choose to do later is up to them.

 

[alan partridge]

There is a simple solution. Go back to wherever you or your parents came from.

If the tables were turned and I was living in India (or similar) and I was racially abused I know exactly what I would do pretty sharpish ... go home.

still puzzled by this one

what you are suggesting is, that some guys who were born in England and indeed support England, which kind of suggests they are pretty comfortable with their Englishness, should go back 'home' because someone abuses them?

Is that what you are saying?

 

[Stat Brother]

For those of you genuinely interested in the question.
Paul Sinha goes some way to explain it.

Paul Sinha's, R4 Comedy of the Week, Podcast..

 

[bazbha]

I can understand why people who were born in England but whose parents weren't would support their parent's country of birth. I'm sure I would support England if my mum & dad had moved abroad before I was born. However when you hear on the news that 2 "British Nationals" were arrested in Afghanistan for being suspected of fighting with the Taliban (thereby wanting to kill British troops) I think we need to take a look at how well some of the Muslim community is integrating in to society. Before I moved back to Sussex last year my job led to me covering areas like Southall & regularly interacting with the Asian community & before I get slated on here I would humbly suggest that unless you've lived & worked in an area like Southall your knowledge of our country is slightly limited (Same as I have little knowledge of rural issues). Maybe the link from cricket to the Taliban is reidiculous but my point is that we need to find a way to find a way to help people integrate better & feel more English.

 

[User removed 4]

who are you to say he's wrong?

He's his son's father. His son is 6. Alongside his mother the biggest influence in his small world, and when it comes to football his main (only) point of contact. I imagine the 'brainwashing' comment is very much tongue in cheek and he's just supporting his teams as he always has. I know I'd buy my son a Brighton shirt whether we lived in Brighton or not. What they choose to do later is up to them.

The "wrong" comment was about supporting england not brighton, pretty obvious i'd have thought, given that this is a thread about support of national teams.

 

[alan partridge]

The "wrong" comment was about supporting england not brighton, pretty obvious i'd have thought, given that this is a thread about support of national teams.

I realised that. Brighton shirt was the first thing that sprung to mind for a son. I'd get them an England shirt too, wherever we lived. Maybe even a Spain one too, but then this fictitious child wouldn't have the same connection that I have had with the country so doubtful they'd have a lot of attachment to it.

It just ain't ever black and white, whatever some people try and say.

 

[ROSM]

Do you know, I think this country would have been far better off if all of the people who arrived here left their own cultures behind and adopted what we do. If those Romans hadn't brought viniculture and roads and aquaducts, or those nasty norsemen hadn't brought a democratic electoral system who knows where we would be today.

It's their fault that we lost the empire you know - apart from the fact that we'd probably not have evolved to the point of a strong ocean going nation to start the empire without them.

It is precisely because of their cultures and how we have intergrated OVER GENERATIONS that we achieved much of what we did.

I for one cannot understand why people cannot see that 1st or even 2nd generation asians who will undoubtedly have lived in a close knit family unit (after all these foreigners seem to do that, all lumped together in one house which smells funny) will have picked up a large degree of social norming and fondness for the heritage of their ancestors over that time. I mean we're talking about cricket here - not a war.

Although some are talking about a war and have made that quantum leap by refrencing people supporting the Taliban. I'm afraid conscientious 'traitors' have existed in all spheres of history. That's nothing to do with recent policies on multi culturalism. Although as in all times, some peoples lack of tolerance and willingness to integrate may have reinforced some peoples traitorous ideals.

 

[BadFish]

I can understand why people who were born in England but whose parents weren't would support their parent's country of birth. I'm sure I would support England if my mum & dad had moved abroad before I was born. However when you hear on the news that 2 "British Nationals" were arrested in Afghanistan for being suspected of fighting with the Taliban (thereby wanting to kill British troops) I think we need to take a look at how well some of the Muslim community is integrating in to society. Before I moved back to Sussex last year my job led to me covering areas like Southall & regularly interacting with the Asian community & before I get slated on here I would humbly suggest that unless you've lived & worked in an area like Southall your knowledge of our country is slightly limited (Same as I have little knowledge of rural issues). Maybe the link from cricket to the Taliban is reidiculous but my point is that we need to find a way to find a way to help people integrate better & feel more English.

Given that the people you talk about live in England and are part of the culture. Getting them to integrate into English society must include English people accepting and embracing their culture to a certian degree. Expecting people to completely change their culture when moving to another country is unrealistic. I think their needs to be a certian amount of compromise on both sides.

 

[BadFish]

The "wrong" comment was about supporting england not brighton, pretty obvious i'd have thought, given that this is a thread about support of national teams.

He knows he is half English and Half Australian. At the moment where sport is concerned he feels more affnity to England. When he gets older and develops a wider social circle I assume he will probably feel more Aussie and back them in the Ashes (I will have no problem with that). I guess as suggested it is to do with how the individual views himself and which country they feel more attached to.