Why did so many players drop standard after Gus

[Lower West Stander]

I still feel a bit sad about Gus.

He did get great stuff out of the players but to my mind his biggest mistake was FFS. If he'd stayed instead of CMS I think we'd have gone up.

But his head was just too big.......

 

[Springal]

I still feel a bit sad about Gus.

He did get great stuff out of the players but to my mind his biggest mistake was FFS. If he'd stayed instead of CMS I think we'd have gone up.

But his head was just too big.......

Or rather Ken Brown screwed him/us over re: budgets.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

He became famous at Sunderland for getting the best out of nobody!

Nonsense, he kept them up when they looked doomed.

And took them to a cup final at Wembley.

 

[Herne Hill Seagull]

It's the team, innit? Not too many people would suggest Leicester have the best players in the Premier League across the board, but there they sit, top. Get the team set up right, in a system the players understand and believe in, with a manager they'll play for, and the whole can add up to more than the sum of its parts.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Nonsense, he kept them up when they looked doomed.

Who was the Sunderland manager that got them into that doomed position in the first place?

 

[Guy Fawkes]

It's the team, innit? Not too many people would suggest Leicester have the best players in the Premier League across the board, but there they sit, top. Get the team set up right, in a system the players understand and believe in, with a manager they'll play for, and the whole can add up to more than the sum of its parts.

Good post, Was going to say something similar but add that the fans also were on board too and backed the players, manager and tactics and showed patience which allowed some to become a success where others had been hounded out before being able to fulfil their potentials with us previously

 

[albionalbino]

Who was the Sunderland manager that got them into that doomed position in the first place?

Paolo Di Canio

 

[Braggfan]

Without a doubt Poyet got the best out of his players. In some respects I think we overachieved at times, a bit like when Martin O’Neil manager Leicester. That side overachieved and when Peter Taylor took over he couldn’t get them to perform at that level and the players slipped back to a more natural level.

I have no doubt that Poyet inspired players but he also got them to do simple things that probably helped their games. Adam El-Abd for example, could easily have been released before Poyet came in. His contract was running out and he wasn’t playing brilliantly (I remember some fans dubbing Adam El-Bad). Poyet came in saw something he liked and gave him a new contract, and El-Abd then improved dramatically. Personally I always thought the key to El-Abd’s improvements were how simple he kept things. He stopped trying to pump the ball 50 yards up pitch and kept it short, and so stopped giving the ball away.

I can see why players performances deteriorated when they went elsewhere if they stopped doing those simple things or were asked to play differently. Love him or hate him, Poyet was probably one of the best managers we’ve had for getting players to play to their potential.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

BUT, compared to Gus teams and his success why did so many of his players fall away so drastically after leaving us despite being decent in his teams ?

Dicker, Navarro, Sparrow, El-Abd, Painter...?

In pretty much ALL of the cases examples you've listed, it is very simply down to their age - especially true of Sparrow who was all about getting about the pitch, and Painter who had very limited pace to start with.

His played a certain style of football. He picked players to suit that style. Quite a number work well in that style but not others. Simples.

But this is also an excellent point, and especially true of Navarro and Dicker.

 

[Springal]

Very true. I guess the Dicker thing kicked off my thoughts. Fell down the leagues and signed from Carisle to Kilmarnock at the end of Jan ! Interestingly, or maybe not James Tunnicliffe is his agent

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Paolo Di Canio

Were they really doomed after just 7 games with Di Canio in charge? (i know they had just 1 point on the board at that time but there were 31 games of the season left)

Or was it after their run of 7 defeats and 1 draw in 8 games under Gus between February 8th and April 12th (nowhere close to when Di Canio was in charge? and how many managers get the chance to turn it around and arn't sacked after that sort of run, (and sometimes a shorter bad run than that) especially in the PL where there is so much money riding on avoiding relegation) - Although Gus then did really well to turn it around and get them to safety was that the run that made them seem doomed in the first place?

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Without a doubt Poyet got the best out of his players. In some respects I think we overachieved at times, a bit like when Martin O’Neil manager Leicester. That side overachieved and when Peter Taylor took over he couldn’t get them to perform at that level and the players slipped back to a more natural level.

I have no doubt that Poyet inspired players but he also got them to do simple things that probably helped their games. Adam El-Abd for example, could easily have been released before Poyet came in. His contract was running out and he wasn’t playing brilliantly (I remember some fans dubbing Adam El-Bad). Poyet came in saw something he liked and gave him a new contract, and El-Abd then improved dramatically. Personally I always thought the key to El-Abd’s improvements were how simple he kept things. He stopped trying to pump the ball 50 yards up pitch and kept it short, and so stopped giving the ball away.

I can see why players performances deteriorated when they went elsewhere if they stopped doing those simple things or were asked to play differently. Love him or hate him, Poyet was probably one of the best managers we’ve had for getting players to play to their potential.

I thought that El-Abd was harshly judged by some of our fans and it wasn't until Gus said that he was probably the most natural defender at the club that fans started to look at his performances and judge him fairly imo. I personally didn't see a big jump in the level of his performances under Gus and had previously defended him on numerous occasions prior to Gus taking over and felt he was a very underrated player prior to those comments

Even when Gus made those comments, it was met with derision from some but it did (eventually) stop fans targeting him for abuse and it did lead to fans getting behind him and the team again which helps unity and motivation of players and of the whole team, helping it to succeed

 

[mona]

Time to move on?

 

[Braggfan]

I thought that El-Abd was harshly judged by some of our fans and it wasn't until Gus said that he was probably the most natural defender at the club that fans started to look at his performances and judge him fairly imo. I personally didn't see a big jump in the level of his performances under Gus and had previously defended him on numerous occasions prior to Gus taking over and felt he was a very underrated player prior to those comments

Even when Gus made those comments, it was met with derision from some but it did (eventually) stop fans targeting him for abuse and it did lead to fans getting behind him and the team again which helps unity and motivation of players and of the whole team, helping it to succeed

I thought El-Abd was the biggest improver under Poyet. Interestingly that you say you thought he was underrated, because maybe he was. His defending was always pretty solid. But I think prior to Gus coming in he made a lot of mistakes, particularly giving away possession. I genuinely think what Poyet did was to help him cut those mistakes out, by improving his distribution or simply getting him to make less risky passes. And like you say maybe his game was always there, and without the mistakes he just blossomed.

I often thought Elphick was similar, in that he made a lot of bad/long balls that gave possession away and gave away silly free kicks, but his actual defending/positioning etc was pretty solid though. Since he went to Bournemouth, it looks like he’s cut those bad parts of his game.

Funnily enough, if you look at Dunk with us now, he’s also very similar in that his defending is excellent but the mistakes he makes tend to be with him giving the ball away. Hopefully Dunk will also cut that out of his game.

 

[Monkey Man]

Time to move on?

Nah, I love dissecting the Poyet era. I also like debates about the Lloyd years, the Gritt miracle, Mullery's two terms, what went wrong with Adams Mark II ... all part of the fun.

 

[mona]

Nah, I love dissecting the Poyet era. I also like debates about the Lloyd years, the Gritt miracle, Mullery's two terms, what went wrong with Adams Mark II ... all part of the fun.

I agree......when things aren't going well. I never looked back during magnificent March when Gus's team won 8 out of 8.
Chris Hughton's team could be fifteen games from glory now.

 

[biddles911]

Only caught the tail end of the Poyet era but I thought his successor, Garcia, presided over some of the most boring football I've seen, despite being moderately successful, and the less said about Hyypia's team the better.

The great thing about CH is that not only is the current team very successful but entertaining too and he's got a new lease of life out of Bruno, Stephens and some of the other stalwarts who seemed to be fading over the last two seasons.

Don't think this should be overlooked in comparing the effect managers have. Plus most of his signings have been superb....

 

[Megazone]

One thing Poyet's team all shared, was the same spiritual home, Withdean stadium.

Since it was unfairly sold and demolished. These players have never been the same. Same goes for Gus.

 

[JCL666]

He (and Garcia) played a certain system and picked players accordingly to specific roles within it.

That mean that limited players, who could fulfil the roles did well. Short passing, solid defensive lines etc.

The downside was that it could stifle more expressive players, and also some players just didn't fit the system (CMS obviously).

I know loads of fans found the style of play a bit boring, but I actually enjoyed it.

But then again I really liked the catenaccio system they played in Italy from the late 80s early 90s... Although that maybe due to excessive Saturday nights followed by watching Football Italia on Sundays.

 

[severnside gull]

ElAbd...journeyman...riiiiiiiight.

300 games for Brighton mostly in lower leagues. Moved to Bristol but quickly dropped. Farmed out to lower league Bury. Farmed out to lower league Swindon.
A handful of games for the mighty Egypt don't really change the picture of a player only really comfortable in lower divisions with shorter periods between each move as his career progresses.
Adam is a lovely guy and there is so much to admire about his attitude but yup, I think journeyman is a reasonable summation.