[Albion] Why aren't we second in group b

[Kinky Gerbil]

It's not an "odd new rule" at all.

Head to head has been the standard way to do it for years now.

It's a better way to do it as well.

Should bring it in here.

 

[PeterT]

It’s all based on alphabetical order. How unlucky that we are in a group where 2 teams start both their first and second names with A!

 

[Dave the hatosaurus]

View attachment 168729
If teams are tied, then they are separated by points in head-to-head matches - we lost to AEK Athens so they took three points from us, and we have none from them.

Just did my head in trying to work different scenarios!
Take this for example, if all the matches in the second half of fixtures were the mirror image of the first (i.e. lose 3-2 at home to a team then beat them 3-2 away) then the final table would see both AEK and us with 8 points and Marseille and Ajax with 7.
Marseille and Ajax would tie all the way down to number 6 when Marseille would take 3rd with 14 goals scored.
Ourselves and AEK would tie all the way down to number 10 meaning disciplinary would decide it! OUCH!

 

[peterward]

Just did my head in trying to work different scenarios!
Take this for example, if all the matches in the second half of fixtures were the mirror image of the first (i.e. lose 3-2 at home to a team then beat them 3-2 away) then the final table would see both AEK and us with 8 points and Marseille and Ajax with 7.
Marseille and Ajax would tie all the way down to number 6 when Marseille would take 3rd with 14 goals scored.
Ourselves and AEK would tie all the way down to number 10 meaning disciplinary would decide it! OUCH!

Just focus on beating Ajax and by time Marseille come, we'll know what we need.

 

[Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo]

And of course, if 3 (or more) teams are tied, it is goal difference first to decide places, then goals scored, etc.
As it's very tight at the moment, it could get interesting later on, but the solution to that is to win our last three games and qualify as group leaders.

If 3 teams are tied they would still go to the head to head results between those 3 teams first. You'd effectively be redoing the table expunging the results of the other team in the group as though they never took part. Only if all 4 teams were tied on points would the goal difference across all group games become the tie-break.

Thanks. I wondered where the info had come from 'officially', as it says this on wikipedia - but some other sites say 'goal difference' - and there is nothing on the official UEFA Europa League webpage!

But your extract quotes the official UEFA documentatio here https://documents.uefa.com/r/Regula...cle-16-Equality-of-points-group-phases-Online

Sorted.


edit - if everything is equal between us and Marseille - it's penalties at the end of the game.

16.02
If two teams that have the same number of points and have scored and conceded the same number of goals play their last group match against each other and are still equal at the end of that match, their final rankings are determined by kicks from the penalty mark (see Paragraph 19.03), provided that no other teams within the group have the same number of points on completion of the last match in the group. Should more than two teams have the same number of points, the criteria listed under Paragraph 16.01 apply. This procedure is only necessary if a ranking of the teams is required to determine the team which qualifies for the next stage.

That set of rules you've quoted there is for the Futsual World Cup qualification in 2014. Unless we've gone back in time and are playing a different sport there is no penalty shootout. The tie-break criteria posted by @Krafty taken from wikipedia is correct.

 

[Official Old Man]

So based on this now know fact-
We HAVE to win in Athens, NOT lose in Amsterdam and DRAW with Marseille.
Except that could leave us level with Marseille and needing pens.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

If it comes down to a coin toss... Dunky, pick heads

 

[Bodian]

If 3 teams are tied they would still go to the head to head results between those 3 teams first. You'd effectively be redoing the table expunging the results of the other team in the group as though they never took part. Only if all 4 teams were tied on points would the goal difference across all group games become the tie-break.



That set of rules you've quoted there is for the Futsual World Cup qualification in 2014. Unless we've gone back in time and are playing a different sport there is no penalty shootout. The tie-break criteria posted by @Krafty taken from wikipedia is correct.

Fair enough! It's this one https://documents.uefa.com/r/Regula...icle-16-Equality-of-points-group-stage-Online

 

[Krafty]

So based on this now know fact-
We HAVE to win in Athens, NOT lose in Amsterdam and DRAW with Marseille.
Except that could leave us level with Marseille and needing pens.

If we are tied with another club, it will not be decided by penalties - that was incorrect information.

It is quite hard to know how many points we will need, since there are still many fixtures to be played, but I would say 7 more points should be enough for first (including a win against Marseille).

 

[Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo]

Fair enough! It's this one https://documents.uefa.com/r/Regula...icle-16-Equality-of-points-group-stage-Online

Yes which is exactly what the previous post by @Krafty said.

 

[knocky1]

Just did my head in trying to work different scenarios!
Take this for example, if all the matches in the second half of fixtures were the mirror image of the first (i.e. lose 3-2 at home to a team then beat them 3-2 away) then the final table would see both AEK and us with 8 points and Marseille and Ajax with 7.
Marseille and Ajax would tie all the way down to number 6 when Marseille would take 3rd with 14 goals scored.
Ourselves and AEK would tie all the way down to number 10 meaning disciplinary would decide it! OUCH!

Excellent scenario.

 

[SeagullsoverLondon]

If 3 teams are tied they would still go to the head to head results between those 3 teams first. You'd effectively be redoing the table expunging the results of the other team in the group as though they never took part. Only if all 4 teams were tied on points would the goal difference across all group games become the tie-break.



That set of rules you've quoted there is for the Futsual World Cup qualification in 2014. Unless we've gone back in time and are playing a different sport there is no penalty shootout. The tie-break criteria posted by @Krafty taken from wikipedia is correct.

But it could still be goal difference after total points, in the first instance, with 3 teams, even if you discount the results against the 4th placed team. They could still all have the same points tally. Then goal difference and goals scored would apply. By its definition, it can only be head to head, when you are trying to separate 2 teams.

 

[Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo]

But it could still be goal difference after total points, in the first instance, with 3 teams, even if you discount the results against the 4th placed team. They could still all have the same points tally. Then goal difference and goals scored would apply. By its definition, it can only be head to head, when you are trying to separate 2 teams.

I never said overall group goal difference wouldn't apply, the only way it would become the first tie-break is if all 4 teams were tied on points as there is no need to do a head to head split in that instance as it isn't going to change anything.

If 3 teams were tied then the first way of trying to separate the teams would to forget about the 4th team in the group. It may not be the 4th placed team either, it could be the team that finished 1st that you are discounting the results of as you are trying to separate the teams that have finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

The first tie-break would be points total in the games between those sides, it would then be goal difference and goals scored in those games. If all 3 sides were still tied after those 3 steps had been applied then it would come down to goal difference in all group games followed by goals scored and then away goals scored and so on as per the table posted earlier in the thread. If two teams are still tied after the first 3 steps have been applied then the results between those two teams are reapplied to try and split those two teams.

Although it seems unlikely all 4 teams would finish level on points it happened last season in group F so goal difference was the way they split the group (with the further complication that Feyenoord and Midtjylland had the same goal difference, so it came down to goals scored in the whole group to decide the group winner).