(White) Welsh rugby player Liam Williams goes to fancy dress party as...

[BadFish]

Europe has never colonised the world. he mentions China which is laughable. Perhaps he is viewing it from a western viewpoint forced on him but it's a western viewpoint nonetheless. hardly a global view more a regional one that is not entirely fair. I getting the points and understand how we cannot claim equivalence but it's still a regional issue, not global.

This is not bang on, but rather still quite parochial. Europeans and their descendants have dominated large parts of the world economically for the last few centuries but it's hardly a clean sweep. You should know that living in a country borne of british expansionism that now deals significantly with Asia.

To be honest I think you are splitting hairs here in order to wilfully miss the point being made.

 

[Soulman]

To be honest I think you are splitting hairs here in order to wilfully miss the point being made.

What point is that, the point of the thread. A professional rugby player who comes from Swansea, goes to a fancy dress party dressed as a Swansea player. The Swansea footballer has no problem with this. The point is that.

 

[BadFish]

What point is that, the point of the thread. A professional rugby player who comes from Swansea, goes to a fancy dress party dressed as a Swansea player. The Swansea footballer has no problem with this. The point is that.

No I don't think he is talking about that. He is discussing the idea of reverse racism.

 

[The Spanish]

No I don't think he is talking about that. He is discussing the idea of reverse racism.

I totally understand that the claim of reverse racism is not so cut and dried. I understand the historical context and I understand how claims of reverse racism are used by people with angles. If you don't see I get that then that's worrying. What I am saying is even that viewpoint is parochial and western and not applicable globally, it deals with a European/African axis that although prevalent and easily understandable in our societies due to historical European financial and political power, is by no means global. If you don't get that, then I serve that back to you.

You think (and should know) that most of Asia is any way concerned with the repercussions of European expansion into Africa and the Americas? Ok Asia experienced European colonialism too, but you think living in Australia that Japan Korea Indonesia singapore etc are by anyway hamstrung socially by it?

The only comparative issues I see are by (increasingly) Chinese aggression in Asia, Korean or Japanese financial dominance of the Philippines (an erstwhile colony of the U.S., poorly supported by them) and an Indonesia on the March who are making a bee line for Australia, effectively a suburb of the uk.

 

[BadFish]

I totally understand that the claim of reverse racism is not so cut and dried. I understand the historical context and I understand how claims of reverse racism are used by people with angles. If you don't see I get that then that's worrying. What I am saying is even that viewpoint is parochial and western and not applicable globally, it deals with a European/African axis that although prevalent due to historical European financial and political power, is by no means global. If you don't get that, then I serve that back to you.

I understand the point you are making I am just not convinced that it really had anything to do with what the guy is saying. he is using a fictitious scenario involving a time machine for comic effect to highlight the weight of history that comes with racism. Maybe he shouldn't have involved other countries in this and should have stuck to the original Africa/Europe axis (although personally I think that western involvement in Asia is relevant in the points he is making but I suppose that is another discussion) but he chose his words and IMHO they manage to serve his point effectively.

 

[BadFish]

I totally understand that the claim of reverse racism is not so cut and dried. I understand the historical context and I understand how claims of reverse racism are used by people with angles. If you don't see I get that then that's worrying. What I am saying is even that viewpoint is parochial and western and not applicable globally, it deals with a European/African axis that although prevalent and easily understandable in our societies due to historical European financial and political power, is by no means global. If you don't get that, then I serve that back to you.

You think (and should know) that most of Asia is any way concerned with the repercussions of European expansion into Africa and the Americas? Ok Asia experienced European colonialism too, but you think living in Australia that Japan Korea Indonesia singapore etc are by anyway hamstrung socially by it?

The only comparative issues I see are by (increasingly) Chinese aggression in Asia, Korean or Japanese financial dominance of the Philippines (an erstwhile colony of the U.S., poorly supported by them) and an Indonesia on the March who are making a bee line for Australia, effectively a suburb of the uk.

I think your edit kind of answers your own point. White/european colonisation in different form is and was widespread across the globe (and as you point out includes large parts of Asia). I think that the guys comedy routine would not have scanned quite so well if he had chosen to exclude the places that have not suffered from colonisation of one form or another. We could call it poetic licence. I think it does him and his message a disservice to get bogged down in the detail of his routine and ignore the point he is making.

 

[atfc village]

To be honest, if the choice was between Bony and Jonjo Shelvey then I'd be willing to put a shift in and get painting

You'd have to be careful with Jonjo and his roots with what you wore as that could end up on the offensive sticky wicket .

 

[The Spanish]

I think your edit kind of answers your own point. White/european colonisation in different form is and was widespread across the globe (and as you point out includes large parts of Asia). I think that the guys comedy routine would not have scanned quite so well if he had chosen to exclude the places that have not suffered from colonisation of one form or another. We could call it poetic licence. I think it does him and his message a disservice to get bogged down in the detail of his routine and ignore the point he is making.

His routine would not have scanned so we'll if we had dealt with reality rather than a self flagellating western (still numerically tiny, globally) one. Then yes I would agree.

No one up here is putting up links from Filipino or Korean comedians discussing Japanese or Chinese expansion, as that's beyond our ken. We are still dealing with a regional issue, the global dominance is assumed from this, and way off the mark. You are a smart fella, surely you get that.

I get his message and in the context above he is not wrong. I understand how a white European blacking up has connotations, and it's a best a red herring for us to contrive that it's otherwise. But this is not static, and to accept what pressure groups on one hand and well meaning misguided people on here would have remain the status quo in perpetuity, is unhealthy and idiotic, and should be challenged. No ulterior motive, apart from the advancement of our society.

Edit - just realised I am starting to sound like mustafa sorry.

In short - yeah blacking up is offensive to some, we have to understand that, but things are outstripping us all. Like back passes to the keeper, fair enough in a different era but we all learned to live with that being unfair.

 

[BadFish]

His routine would not have scanned so we'll if we had dealt with reality rather than a self flagellating western (still numerically tiny, globally) one. Then yes I would agree.

No one up here is putting up links from Filipino or Korean comedians discussing Japanese or Chinese expansion, as that's beyond our ken. We are still dealing with a regional issue, the global dominance is assumed from this, and way off the mark. You are a smart fella, surely you get that.

I get his message and in the context above he is not wrong. I understand how a white European blacking up has connotations, and it's a best a red herring for us to contrive that it's otherwise. But this is not static, and to accept what pressure groups on one hand and well meaning misguided people on here would have remain the status quo in perpetuity, is unhealthy and idiotic, and should be challenged. No ulterior motive, apart from the advancement of our society.

I don't agree that colonisation is a regional problem but that is a different discussion

The advancement of society is not going to happen without the recognition and acceptance of our past though surely?. There are many people on here who have asked why this act is deemed racist and have asked why it is not so bad when reversed.

 

[The Spanish]

I don't agree that colonisation is a regional problem but that is a different discussion

The advancement of society is not going to happen without the recognition and acceptance of our past though surely?. There are many people on here who have asked why this act is deemed racist and have asked why it is not so bad when reversed.

No you are right.

 

[BadFish]

No you are right. What you have to accept though is our society has done that in volumes, even legislation is built around colonial actions that very few people alive were party to. You can understand why it's difficult. Sins of the fathers and all that. I was born and educated from a welfare state that my country could not have paid for if it wasn't for the wealth created through colonialism. But is that my fault, or should I be criminalised for expressing disquiet about the current state of the uk because of it? All good questions.

No you should absolutely not and it is certainly time to move on. However we are on the side of the issue that makes it easy for us to move on. Many on the other side seemingly, rightly or wrongly find it more difficult to move on. This suggests to me that although few people were alive to witness the decisions made there are still many who are affected by the hangover caused. Black people are still far more likely to be stopped and searched, pulled over or shot by the police than white people. The aboriginal situation still has a long way to go in Australia before any hint of equality can be claimed.

I don't think that a bunch of white people who support a football club in the south east of England are best positioned to decide when black people should move on from oppression and racism - sorry got a bit ranty there, i think i need some food.

 

[Triggaaar]

I'm not sure anyone has ever worn fancy dress to 'look up' to someone?

Well often people will dress up as movie characters they like, such as star wars, and that's often a compliment rather than something of ridicule.

 

[somerset]

It is increasingly irritating that the multitude of Guardian reading apologists on this site, in this country, are perpetuating the view that we should for all eternity, clothe ourselves in sackcloth and ashes for actions that took place generations ago. Can you tell me how long I have to feel guilty? How long do my offspring have to feel guilty?.

I was also wondering why the British Empire cones in for a particular level of accusatory examination, when far more carnage was visited by the French and Spanish colonial activities. You are reminded that we were the very first nation to ban slavery.

 

[The Spanish]

It is increasingly irritating that the multitude of Guardian reading apologists on this site, in this country, are perpetuating the view that we should for all eternity, clothe ourselves in sackcloth and ashes for actions that took place generations ago. Can you tell me how long I have to feel guilty? How long do my offspring have to feel guilty?.

I was also wondering why the British Empire cones in for a particular level of accusatory examination, when far more carnage was visited by the French and Spanish colonial activities. You are reminded that we were the very first nation to ban slavery.

Indeed I was at rizals memorial at intra muros in the Philippines the other day, you think the Brits were bad. Think again.

 

[BadFish]

It is increasingly irritating that the multitude of Guardian reading apologists on this site, in this country, are perpetuating the view that we should for all eternity, clothe ourselves in sackcloth and ashes for actions that took place generations ago. Can you tell me how long I have to feel guilty? His long do my offspring have to feel guilty?.

I was also wondering why the British Empire cones in for a particular level of accusatory examination, when far more carnage was visited by the French and Spanish colonial activities. You are reminded that we were the very first nation to ban slavery.

You don't need to feel guilty at all, you can feel how you want to feel. You can move on whenever you are ready. But then so can others.

I have not read all this thread but i am not sure that the British empire has come into for any extra examination on here. My guess is that in the wider context you have heard more about British colonial activities because you are British and they are more relevant to you.

 

[Freddie Goodwin.]

Not read the whole thread but what does Mr Bony think about it? it's not taking the 'p', more a tribute.

Somebody earlier asked about what if a black man played as white? Didn't Lenny Henry do this in a film once? is he racist?

And what statement are panto dames making?

 

[pastafarian]

Well often people will dress up as movie characters they like, such as star wars, and that's often a compliment rather than something of ridicule.

dunno really.

when my niece was 7 she slapped on a load of fake tan and dressed up as Pocahontas.

its quite clear from some comments on here she is an evil racist bitch.


ill let her know in the morning.

 

[Soulman]

Not read the whole thread but what does Mr Bony think about it? it's not taking the 'p', more a tribute.

The person in question in this instance was not offended.
Liam Williams, 23, posted picture of himself dressed as Wilfried Bony
Williams said Bony gave the costume his blessing after criticism

 

[Seagull on the wing]

So,if I wanted to go to a party as Wilfried Bony...but did not put on tanning on my skin people would say..."Well! your'e not a racist but you look nothing like him...get a life...I've been all around the world....been called "Whitey",Honkey,White Trash....did I take offence at that! No,...it's banter,the trouble with todays people,they think they can take the moral high ground....I have lived with many different nationalities and people are just that....there are good and bad amongst all...

 

[Southwest Seagull]

These sort of issues make me sad.

A guy wants to dress as a local hero - the best footballer for his local team by the looks of it.

From one professional sportsman to another, how is that anything other than a term of endearment and admiration. Not only that, but Wilfried himself has apparently blessed it. Complete non-issue, and shouldn't ever be.