What price our freedom?

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The iPOD has just delivered me The Fall.

Meanwhile, I don't understand why you (either of you) want to argue this any more. For some people the glass is half full, and for others . . . .

NOTHING changes the convictions of the fully engaged. If you had a family member killed in Ulster, for example, it would inform your outlook in a way that little would diminish, and every St George's day would re-affirm. If that's unhealthy for you, you could be damned. Many things less have cracked a person.

This is not the place to expect converts, but carry on if you must.

I'm bored now. And the iPOD has just delivered me the wondrous Bel Canto.

Night Night.

 

[Soulman]

I find both equally repulsive.

So what to do? do nothing or show your anger without killing anyone........NONE have been killed by those in the second picture.

 

[Yossarian]

So what to do? do nothing or show your anger without killing anyone........NONE have been killed by those in the second picture.

.....yet. Probably those individuals never will, but others have died at the hands of British fascists like them in race hate crimes. I realise one breeds the other and on and on it goes. So the answer surely is to tackle all extremism by education, and where the laws of the land are broken use the justice system, as imperfect as it is. We already have enough legislation, the Snoopers Charter would not have saved Lee Rigby in the same way that incitement to religious hatred legislation hasn't saved the victims of religious hate crimes.

 

[cunning fergus]

Many of the historic 'invaders' became immigrants and assimilated into pre-existing societies. It is a fallacy that all were violent conquerors, although many certainly were. Since then we've had all those from our Empire, you don't need me to list all the nationalities. We have been a multicultural society for hundreds of years. Some have integrated better than others of course, as is the case all over the world where borders are largely open. What is different with the extremist Islamists is that they want to impose their doctrine on the rest of society, which of course is wrong. They are however a small, if significant, minority and not representative of the larger British Muslim community. We are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater if this reductionist scaremongering is allowed to continue, and we will all be the losers.

Invaders became immigrants and then assimilated? Who did that? History would show it usually goes the other way and that you assimilate with the invaders or you die. You may know stuff eminent historians don't...........groundbreaking stuff.

Multicultural for hundreds of years.........give me a starting point and who were here in material numbers enriching this island with their different ways............I bet they weren't Catholic or Jewish cause they largely got killed by the predecessors of the EDL. Do you know they still burn an effigy of the Pope at Lewes?

 

[BadFish]

I agree with that.

When I was a teenager, many years ago, I worked out that one way to get rid of all conflict (racial) would be to remove everyone who wasn't 'like me' from these shores. It would work. But there again, there are lots of white people I dislike. A lot. Get rid of them too. Hmmm . . . not 'that' keen on my own family . . . . best live in a cave somewhere.

Or perhaps . . . we could try to learn about one another and live together, resolving conflict through good sense or, if needs be, the rule of law . . . . there's a thought. Beats genocide (the 'decisive' solution) any day. And a police state is just genocide done on a half-hearted basis.

Now, Bozza - time to kill this thread!

You should definitely post more often. I can't give you a bob per post unless we can put a ceiling on at around 50p...........okay then maybe a quid.

 

[BadFish]

.....yet. Probably those individuals never will, but others have died at the hands of British fascists like them in race hate crimes. I realise one breeds the other and on and on it goes. So the answer surely is to tackle all extremism by education, and where the laws of the land are broken use the justice system, as imperfect as it is. We already have enough legislation, the Snoopers Charter would not have saved Lee Rigby in the same way that incitement to religious hatred legislation hasn't saved the victims of religious hate crimes.

For what it is worth I agree with your sentiments on this thread. However this incident is and will be used to stir up hate and anger on all sides by those wishing to stir up hate and anger. It staggers me that this incident is being used to further the anti immigration debate when as far as I can see it has little or nothing to do with it. For me it is a great shame that such a disgusting act should be used by people to further their own political agendas.

The extremist Muslims are a small minority of Muslims and a miniscule minority of immigrants.

 

[pastafarian]

i cant see it happening in my lifetime but hopefully one day Muslims,Christians,Buddhist Monks,Sikhs,Hindus,Jews and anyone else i have forgotten to list will just stop killing each other in the name of their religion. Because of their pathetic outdated grievances and their hatred there is now another debate surrounding my privacy and civil liberties and what access the government has to my personal life.
Maybe i am just cynical,if there was merit in these extra powers why not push for them all the time rather than use this shocking death of Lee Rigby as a political re-launch pad for these powers,the poor lad surely deserves more than that.
I really wish all these religious twats would just google off.

 

[BadFish]

i cant see it happening in my lifetime but hopefully one day Muslims,Christians,Buddhist Monks,Sikhs,Hindus,Jews and anyone else i have forgotten to list will just stop killing each other in the name of their religion. Because of their pathetic outdated grievances and their hatred there is now another debate surrounding my privacy and civil liberties and what access the government has to my personal life.
Maybe i am just cynical,if there was merit in these extra powers why not push for them all the time rather than use this shocking death of Lee Rigby as a political re-launch pad for these powers,the poor lad surely deserves more than that.
I really wish all these religious twats would just google off.

Amen to that brother.

Unfortunately these kind of incidents hold a lot of power by promoting the ill thought out and knee jerk reactions that governments need to garner support for the stripping of our civil liberties to save us from the Islamic enemy.

 

[pastafarian]

For what it is worth I agree with your sentiments on this thread. However this incident is and will be used to stir up hate and anger on all sides by those wishing to stir up hate and anger. It staggers me that this incident is being used to further the anti immigration debate when as far as I can see it has little or nothing to do with it. For me it is a great shame that such a disgusting act should be used by people to further their own political agendas.

The extremist Muslims are a small minority of Muslims and a miniscule minority of immigrants.

Mr Fish,its been a while since we chatted.
You get some grief on here sometimes and i am probably on the opposite political spectrum to you,but you are 100% spot on on this,this incident is nothing to do with immigration,there are those that are trying to make political gain out of this issue on this very basis and they should be ++++ing ashamed of themselves.these people should stick to the facts,muddying the waters helps no one in this debate

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Freedom is a misconception.

From the moment you are born they start recording information about you.

it's existence is based all around ones perception of what constitutes freedom.

 

[BadFish]

Mr Fish,its been a while since we chatted.
You get some grief on here sometimes and i am probably on the opposite political spectrum to you,but you are 100% spot on on this,this incident is nothing to do with immigration,there are those that are trying to make political gain out of this issue on this very basis and they should be ++++ing ashamed of themselves.these people should stick to the facts,muddying the waters helps no one in this debate

Could not agree more Mr Farian.

I am sure we will back to our respective sides of the spectrum soon but for what it is worth IMHO you are one of the posters worth reading on here. You make a lot of sense.

 

[pastafarian]

Amen to that brother.

Unfortunately these kind of incidents hold a lot of power by promoting the ill thought out and knee jerk reactions that governments need to garner support for the stripping of our civil liberties to save us from the Islamic enemy.

the problem is mate and i dont know how it resonated in OZ news wise but this incident has really really shocked the nation,people are rightly demanding action and rightly want some sort of government action,but i am too concerned these actions are knee jerk and not fully thought through.I was as livid as the next person the other day but deliberately didnt post on NSC,sometimes we need to step back and take a long unwanted deep breath

 

[pastafarian]

Freedom is a misconception.

spoken like a true catholic
you and your ilk are part of the problem.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

spoken like a true catholic
you and your ilk are part of the problem.

How would you know? Your head is so far up your own arse what would you ever see?

Governments control public "freedom", not churches. You can opt in and out of a faith any time you like. You can't opt out of a society and its laws.

If you had a brain that worked you'd understand that.

 

[pastafarian]

How would you know? Your head is so far up your own arse what would you ever see?

Governments control public "freedom", not churches. You can opt in and out of a faith any time you like. You can't opt out of a society and its laws.

If you had a brain that worked you'd understand that.

i am going with i do have a brain and it does work,luckily for me it has evolved over millions of years into its present state and i am able to rationally conclude many things,one of them being if you genuinely believe churches as institutions do not control people you are a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.

I love the way you pop in and out of these debates about personal freedom.you clearly love to have the right to spout your stuff but when you and your catholic church are attacked in even the most simplistic form you turn into what can only be described as some sort of Nazi.........and i am being cruel to Nazis when it comes to you.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

i am going with i do have a brain and it does work,luckily for me it has evolved over millions of years into its present state and i am able to rationally conclude many things,one of them being if you genuinely believe churches as institutions do not control people you are a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.

All of which has nothing to do with freedom within society as raised by the OP.

Governments pass and uphold laws. Quite simple really. A lot like you it seems.

I love the way you pop in and out of these debates about personal freedom.you clearly love to have the right to spout your stuff but when you are and your catholic church are attacked in even the most simplistic form you turn into what can only be described as some sort of Nazi.........and i am being cruel to Nazis when it comes to you.

Once again your myopic view can't differentiate between what the OP was talking about. You just fly off into some bigoted rant.

Godwin's laws dictates you lose due to your crass stupidity.

 

[pastafarian]

How would you know? Your head is so far up your own arse what would you ever see?

Governments control public "freedom", not churches. You can opt in and out of a faith any time you like. You can't opt out of a society and its laws.

If you had a brain that worked you'd understand that.

out of interest and i dont like to so obviously digress from the original topic but since you say churches do not control public freedom , can you explain how your catholic religion offers the freedom of people to use condoms and the freedom of people to have abortions

 

[pastafarian]

Once again your myopic view can't differentiate between what the OP was talking about. You just fly off into some bigoted rant.

Godwin's laws dictates you lose due to your crass stupidity.

ooh the old Godwins Law......you know what they say....once an apologist always an idiot.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

out of interest and i dont like to so obviously digress from the original topic but since you say churches do not control public freedom , can you explain how your catholic religion offers the freedom of people to use condoms and the freedom of people to have abortions

If you are a Catholic it's your choice if you use a condom or have an abortion. The Church has guidelines, no armeds force or lawyers to enforce it.

What part of that don't you get?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

ooh the old Godwins Law......you know what they say....once an apologist always an idiot.

Actually what they'd say is any moron who compares the Jewish holocaust to try and make a stupid nonsensical point is an idiot.