[Finance] What is 'rich' in 2023?

[Bakero]

Very nice but why call it a Candy store? Is it all American sweets?

I guess for alliteration's sake.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Wouldn't it be amazing if private schools were abolished.

And at the same time, perhaps they could bring down the standards of the better state schools so that no child gets a better education than the next child.

If there is a problem with schools not being good enough (and it's not a new problem), the answer isn't to close the good ones. It's to make the bad ones, better.

 

[Bakero]

And at the same time, perhaps they could bring down the standards of the better state schools so that no child gets a better education than the next child.

If there is a problem with schools not being good enough (and it's not a new problem), the answer isn't to close the good ones. It's to make the bad ones, better.

I imagine that if those with the reins of powers had to send their own offspring to state schools, standards would be raised across the board.

I see myriad benefits and no drawbacks of getting rid of institutions that entrench division in society. If I were PM, it'd be the first thing I did.

 

[Lenny Rider]

Ha! Yes probably.

I read an article the other day suggesting you need £204K a year to have 2 kids in private school, couple of nice holidays and nice detached house now. That is insane. The idea of a Consultant Cardiologist, for example, being unable to have kids in private school, seems unbelievable somehow.

Where do they get these stats from?

The ultimate part of being rich is happiness, if you’re not happy in yourself then no amount of money is really going to change that.

As a parent, regardless of how much money you’ve got, you’re only as happy as your saddest child.

 

[dazzer6666]

Where do they get these stats from?

The ultimate part of being rich is happiness, if you’re not happy in yourself then no amount of money is really going to change that.

As a parent, regardless of how much money you’ve got, you’re only as happy as your saddest child.

Agree with you but that’s nothing to do with the stats……..they look about right don’t they ?

Schooling would be c£50k alone, couple of holidays another £10k+, and with a mortgage of say £25k pa that’s £85k of your £115k net salary gone, leaving you £30k for the rest - easily swallowed up on general living expenses, particularly if you lob in a couple of PCP contracts on your shiny new cars.

 

[Diablo]

Rich is having enough money to live as you wish with a bit spare. Maybe £25k for single person no borrowings.

 

[dsr-burnley]

I imagine that if those with the reins of powers had to send their own offspring to state schools, standards would be raised across the board.

I see myriad benefits and no drawbacks of getting rid of institutions that entrench division in society. If I were PM, it'd be the first thing I did.

I've often seen that imagined. I don't know how many schools Tony Blair's children passed to get to The Oratory, but it doesn't suggest much commitment to putting the greater good of the country against the good of his own children.

Diane Abbott and Shirley Williams have both proved in the past that they are willing to abide by the principle of closing good schools so that lesser schools can improve, while making sure their children still go to the good schools.

I've no doubt there are myriad reasons for some schools being bad, but lack of money isn't one of the primary ones IMO. Schools nowadays have far more money than in earlier generations, but I don't see modern educations as vastly better than in earlier generations.

 

[Bakero]

I've often seen that imagined. I don't know how many schools Tony Blair's children passed to get to The Oratory, but it doesn't suggest much commitment to putting the greater good of the country against the good of his own children.

Diane Abbott and Shirley Williams have both proved in the past that they are willing to abide by the principle of closing good schools so that lesser schools can improve, while making sure their children still go to the good schools.

I've no doubt there are myriad reasons for some schools being bad, but lack of money isn't one of the primary ones IMO. Schools nowadays have far more money than in earlier generations, but I don't see modern educations as vastly better than in earlier generations.

Sorry, what's your argument in favour of segregating children based on the wealth of their parents? What benefits does it bring to society at large?

 

[Is it PotG?]

Agree with you but that’s nothing to do with the stats……..they look about right don’t they ?

Schooling would be c£50k alone....

Schooling need not be that much.

If they excel in a particular area, then scholarships are commonplace and will considerably reduce the financial burden apparently.

This would apply to even the more desirable private establishments.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Sorry, what's your argument in favour of segregating children based on the wealth of their parents? What benefits does it bring to society at large?

The point is that few parents, however politically inclined they are to abolish the better and most popular schools, will follow through by sending their child to a rubbish school in hopes that it might somehow improve. If their good school is closed, they will find another good school somehow, including the option of moving house. The theory of closing the best schools until they're all as bad as each other isn't going to help society either.

Wasn't it Brighton that had this experiment a few years back to allocate children to schools at random, rather than by nearest school? I think it failed because the practical difficulties (eg. transport) were too great, but whether it would have succeeded otherwise, we don't know.

Unlikely, I reckon. IMO one of the big problems of the comprehensive schools at the moment is their size. I'm not sure why it was decided that 2,000 or 3,000 pupils is the ideal number; it seems far too big to me. Make many more schools, a greater variety of schools, with perhaps 200 pupils per school, 20 pupils per class, 2 classes x 5 years. That way it's so much easier for everyone to know everyone, and specifically for all children to be known by all teachers so they can be taught, helped, controlled, as individuals not as a mass.

 

[Bakero]

The point is that few parents, however politically inclined they are to abolish the better and most popular schools, will follow through by sending their child to a rubbish school in hopes that it might somehow improve. If their good school is closed, they will find another good school somehow, including the option of moving house. The theory of closing the best schools until they're all as bad as each other isn't going to help society either.

Wasn't it Brighton that had this experiment a few years back to allocate children to schools at random, rather than by nearest school? I think it failed because the practical difficulties (eg. transport) were too great, but whether it would have succeeded otherwise, we don't know.

Unlikely, I reckon. IMO one of the big problems of the comprehensive schools at the moment is their size. I'm not sure why it was decided that 2,000 or 3,000 pupils is the ideal number; it seems far too big to me. Make many more schools, a greater variety of schools, with perhaps 200 pupils per school, 20 pupils per class, 2 classes x 5 years. That way it's so much easier for everyone to know everyone, and specifically for all children to be known by all teachers so they can be taught, helped, controlled, as individuals not as a mass.

Why would they all be bad? Finland did away with fee-paying schools in the 70s and have a world-renowned education system.

I fully agree with your point about class sizes. That of course would necessitate massive investment.

 

[dazzer6666]

Schooling need not be that much.

If they excel in a particular area, then scholarships are commonplace and will considerably reduce the financial burden apparently.

This would apply to even the more desirable private establishments.

The stats were a generalisation…..also don’t need a big holiday or 2k mortgage but I can tell you for certain the numbers leading to the stat are very common.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I imagine that if those with the reins of powers had to send their own offspring to state schools, standards would be raised across the board.

I see myriad benefits and no drawbacks of getting rid of institutions that entrench division in society. If I were PM, it'd be the first thing I did.

I’m afraid it would make very little difference to division in society as that would manifest in a different way. What it would do is massively inflate house prices (even further) in the areas near a good state school. The trends we already see between good and bad state schools would be exacerbated by the absence of private schools. You can’t legislate away the ability of educated parents to ensure their children also get a decent education and you can’t make them stay in a bad school. Nor should you.

 

[Bakero]

I’m afraid it would make very little difference to division in society as that would manifest in a different way. What it would do is massively inflate house prices (even further) in the areas near a good state school. The trends we already see between good and bad state schools would be exacerbated by the absence of private schools. You can’t legislate away the ability of educated parents to ensure their children also get a decent education and you can’t make them stay in a bad school. Nor should you.

It wouldn't be an overnight fix but the long term benefits are huge. Having a 2-tier system is just wrong, with vast swathes of society living in different bubbles from birth.

It's never going to happen as there isn't the political will but we can dream.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It wouldn't be an overnight fix but the long term benefits are huge. Having a 2-tier system is just wrong, with vast swathes of society living in different bubbles from birth.

It's never going to happen as there isn't the political will but we can dream.

We don’t have a 2 tier system. It is multi tier which reflects hugely different aspirations. I could name you state schools less than 3 miles from my house in opposite directions whose pupils live in different bubbles from birth and whose schools reflect that reality. All state funded but completely different areas.

 

[Bakero]

We don’t have a 2 tier system. It is multi tier which reflects hugely different aspirations. I could name you state schools less than 3 miles from my house in opposite directions whose pupils live in different bubbles from birth and whose schools reflect that reality. All state funded but completely different areas.

I'm not sure the 5-year-olds we're segregating have "different aspirations".

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I'm not sure the 5-year-olds we're segregating have "different aspirations".

The parents have different aspirations. As for ‘segregation,’ that happens when those parents move to a better area for a better school or choose to just move their kids out of a school where learning just isn’t possible because of behaviour issues. Happens all the time.

 

[Bakero]

The parents have different aspirations. As for ‘segregation,’ that happens when those parents move to a better area for a better school or choose to just move their kids out of a school where learning just isn’t possible because of behaviour issues. Happens all the time.

That's my point. Why does parental wealth or "aspiration" dictate a child's education?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Why would they all be bad? Finland did away with fee-paying schools in the 70s and have a world-renowned education system.

I fully agree with your point about class sizes. That of course would necessitate massive investment.

Which contradicts his ( @dsr-burnley) earlier assertion that funding isn’t an issue.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Which contradicts his ( @dsr-burnley) earlier assertion that funding isn’t an issue.

It does. But I reckon there could be big savings by losing a lot of the admin staffs, the education authorities, and going back to core principles of teachers and pupils. And massively cutting back on paperwork so that teachers can be teachers not administrators, which will surely improve the standard of their teaching as well as very much improving their quality of life.