[Football] What about this VAR suggestion from Souness?

[um bongo molongo]

Do away with the lines and show it in real time. Then obvious offsides will be apparent, others give the benefit to the attacking team.

Or this. Both of these better suggestions than anything I’ve heard from the pundits

 

[mwrpoole]

It is difficult. Judging offside involves drawing a line and you’re either over it or not - how much by is irrelevant. What’s needed is an acceptable margin of error. I quite like [MENTION=36]Titanic[/MENTION]’s suggestion but I would simplify it even more:

Draw a 10cm line from the rear most part of the defender.

If any part of the attacker is beyond that - offside. If not onside.

Of course you’d still have decisions where they are 1mm over but everyone would have to accept the margin for error has been broken.

Without VAR we would have lost at Arsenal for what wasn’t even a close decision so it does have its place.

I can’t see anything changing though unless SKY want it changed or Liverpool/ManU get a few decisions against them.

 

[227 BHA]

As annoying as this whole situation is at times the one thing I like about VAR is that it punishes (or lets off) the big clubs as well as teams like us meaning that we all get a fair “rub of the green” unlike previous seasons when we all seemed to be in agreement that the big clubs always got the decisions from the ref on the pitch

 

[dejavuatbtn]

The “any part being level” argument still doesn’t get over the fact that it still has to be reviewed and doesn’t compensate for the time lag with video frames. We’d be no better off.
Personally I’d like to treat the officials as sportsmen who, like footballers, make mistakes, albeit that they probably make fewer. It also undermines their credibility as officials.
I’d ditch VAR for offside and ban the press and TV from spending hours drooling over marginally incorrect decisions.

 

[Acker79]

No... It is just another line to be argued about.

What is needed is a margin for error.

Pick your 'moment' the ball was kicked... pick your armpit or toenail on the defender and the attacker... draw a FAT line (say 10cms wide) for each.

If the lino flagged for offside and the fat lines overlap in any way, the decision stands... it was not a 'howler'.

If the lino does not flag for offside and the lines do not overlap.. then VAR makes the offside call... it was a 'howler' and you can fix it.

There will still be the odd call that does go down to millimeters one way or the other... it will already be clearly several cms offside or onside so any sense of injustice will be removed.

Like so many suggestions all this does is move where the line is. There will still be tight calls that take five minutes and the difference is, like you say, millimetres, but it will be more than 'the odd call', I doubt anyone thought there would be as many tight calls as there has been, no one would have called five disallowed goals that were mms offside in one weekend. Fans and players feel like the victim of conspiracies when the decisions are clear cut and correct, when they're that tight they decry the system. Moving the line, does little to stop that.

I think bringing the ref's flag into the equation just brings in more room for error or frustration for fans.

The whole 'clear blue sky' or 'back of the attacker, front of the defender' options, as I think someone mentioned above, goes against the spirit of the offside law. If the attacker is someone like Dan Burn or a Peter Crouch, they can be a couple of yards further forward with their massive leg span, then have them leaning forward to head the ball and that's even further forward. If you bring in a law to stop attackers gaining an unfair advantage in a chase back for the ball, what's the point in giving them that unfair advantage back?

Their are only two ways to solve this issue - forbid the VAR to check offsides, or do away with the offside law altogether. Anything else just moves the line.

 

[rippleman]

I thought VAR was going to be positive for the game but the way it is being used is killing the game.

"Offside" should be clear and obvious. It should take a few seconds for VAR to make a decision but it is taking forever. Put the line up and make the call. It doesn't need minutes of dithering by the VAR. There was a suggestion somewhere to use an experienced former player to make the call rather than a referee. We all know that some refs are better than others.

I also don't understand why we (at the game) can't see what VAR is looking at. If I'm watching a game at home it is shown in real time. Why are supporters who go to matches being denied the opportunity to see why VAR is reviewing a decision / situation?

And why can't refs go and look at the screens where necessary to make a decision for themselves? They did it in the womens world cup and in other tournaments so why can't it happen in the PL?

VAR is a shambles. To be fair it did take a few years for the cricket reviews to bed in but then the cricket administrators always knew it was a wip and were prepared to make changes (for players and spectators) as it went along. I can't see the same flexibility to make changes from FIFA, UEFA & PL.

 

[The Fifth Column]

I think the main question that should be being asked is why do we have the offside rule and what is its purpose? I think most would say it's to prevent an attacking player gaining a clear advantage in scoring a goal or being in a position that would clearly have a major influence on an attacking phase of play leading to a goal. A lot of these VAR decisions are clearly failing in this regard and when you take Burns goal as an example there is no way the miniscule part of his body that was offside had any influence on the eventual goal. The only answer is to ditch VAR in its current form for Offside decisions.

 

[pigbite]

Before VAR came in all we would hear from pundits and fans was the cry to use video to correct mistakes being made by officials in games. Right now it really is a case of "beware of what you wish for". I personally think the principle of VAR is sound, especially when the standard of officiating seemed so poor however the current direction of VAR is ripping the heart out of the game and all but removing the need for anyone but a single official to oversee a game. The officials, especially the ones running the line, are simply not making any calls at all and leaving it to VAR. The video refs are, in turn, reverting to this highly technical process that ignores everything we love about the passion and immediacy of the game.

So can it be balanced? I think so but only if the original point of VAR is revisited. IMHO, the point of VAR is to correct the mistakes made by officials not picking up infringements that they should have done. Should a lino or ref have picked up a player offside, a handball, a foul? If they reasonably could have done so but didn't then VAR corrects things. If not (e.g. these toes and fingers "offside") then let the original decision stand. On marginals then let the ref have the final say (meaning they have to use the monitor).
On top of that, if VAR reverses a decision then make the officials accountable, i.e. it counts against them and forms part of their performance review.

I understand that this does introduce far more subjectivity that objectivity but having seen where the highly technical approach is taking us then I for one would rather let the ref decide if a possible infringement made any material difference to the game.

VAR should be there to correct human error not replace human decision making where a person in real time and in the moment cannot be reasonably expected to pick up the smallest of infringements.

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

In cricket DRS is used - this being Decision Review System - the players get 1 [or 2] opportunities to challenge [same in Tennis] a "howler".

Key to cricket with LBW is the concept of "Umpire's call" - in essence, the umpire has made a decision - so if the ball is only partially hitting the wicket, the decision remains the umpires.
I think too many Linos are now not flagging as they know VAR will get the right decision for them - this is the fundamental aspect of VAR that needs to change.

So, let the officials officiate, and let the captain's challenge [only] if they think a clear and obvious error of judgement has been made.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

What you just said.

I was totally against VAR originally. Firmly in the "it'll spoil the game and make it like egg chasing" camp.

Then, with how it was used in the World Cup, I thought "well actually this is probably a good thing". It was used well in most cases.

And then this shambles.

The way VAR has been implemented in the Premier League has been nothing short of pathetic.

It's not about being pro or anti the use of the technology, it's about how it's being used.

This (and what [MENTION=258]Pavilionaire[/MENTION] said originally). I said ages ago that I couldn't believe the PL just rushed ahead and launched it without any sort of proper trial or test/evaluation phase. Absolutely crazy. And also the fact that they seemingly ignored not only what happens in other football leagues, but also in other sports who have implemented it successfully. Yes, some of those sports had teething problems with it, but all the more reason to look at them and see what they issues were and – more importantly – how they solved them.

There was an opportunity to implement it in a sensible and effective way – and they screwed it up to the point that managers, fans, players, pundits, pretty much everyone hates it. Current officials probably wouldn't ever speak out publicly against it, but I bet they can't stand it either!

Shambles.

 

[dibsy]

Can we not use technology to solve this technology created problem. Have a tracker on each player (doesn't matter where - as long as it is the same for each player - on a boot ideally I suppose). Real time tracking. Just need to look at when the ball was kicked and let the technology say which players tracker was furthest forward.

But that doesn't solve all the other VAR guff - like some random 'checking penalty' for a reason no one has any idea about.

Clear and obvious is the key phrase imo

 

[DavePage]

with such minuscule margins why don’t they go back to where the ball was kicked to check that the picture was stopped at precisely the right time? Because that fraction of a second could change the whole decision.
why don’t they analyze when the ball was touched or the ball moving with such degrees as the forwards lock of hair?

 

[banjo]

 

[dazzer6666]

with such minuscule margins why don’t they go back to where the ball was kicked to check that the picture was stopped at precisely the right time? Because that fraction of a second could change the whole decision.
why don’t they analyze when the ball was touched or the ball moving with such degrees as the forwards lock of hair?

The can’t even do that to the precise millisecond......there’s a margin of time when the foot is in contact with the ball which makes the precision they use with the lines ridiculous. The line simply needs to be thicker to account for that IMO.

 

[Acker79]

The can’t even do that to the precise millisecond......there’s a margin of time when the foot is in contact with the ball which makes the precision they use with the lines ridiculous. The line simply needs to be thicker to account for that IMO.

The thickness of the lines isn't the issue right now, and simply making them thicker doesn't change anything because the lines are allowed to overlap - it's the edge of the line they review, and that is a problem. If they took the position that any overlap of the lines meant the players were level, a lot of the recent high profile decisions would have gone the other way.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Is VAR actually getting worse?

I’m convinced that the operator simply drew the line down from Mane in the wrong place. You then have Pickford’s horror tackle, Werner’s arm juggle. How can it be this bad and inconsistent still!?

 

[amexer]

If they are to continue to use a line to make a decision why not like other sports say foot has to be over line to be off side

 

[southstandandy]

Is VAR actually getting worse?

I’m convinced that the operator simply drew the line down from Mane in the wrong place. You then have Pickford’s horror tackle, Werner’s arm juggle. How can it be this bad and inconsistent still!?

Problem is that's it's still all down to human opinion. I watched the Merseyside Derby yesterday with a full HD broadcast and at the moment they freezed the frame it is not conclusive that Mane was offside. Pretty much all the pundits watching it in the studio felt the same but the man watching it for VAR purposes read it as offside.

Maybe the officials at Stockley park have super specs or better eyes than the rest of us mere mortals. Yesterdays decision was still ultimately subjective in my view and not 'clearly offside'.

Prefer personally to have things as they were 2 seasons ago. Yes, refs make mistakes but they still do today even with VAR (Pickford not getting a Red card as a case in point), but at least in the past the game still flowed. Now every contentious decision sees numerous pauses in play - it won't be long before they start sticking in ad breaks during VAR calls at this rate.

 

[Diablo]

Why can`t Offside rule be done away with ?? More goals , Less controversy, Better game !!

 

[drew]

The solution is to remove the technology that adds the lines and rely on whether the offside can be determined by the naked eye. Freeze the frame and make a decision with the emphasis on the attacker getting the benefit of doubt.