[Politics] Westminster debate on returning football fans

[drew]

No disease in the past 100 years has led to stay-at-home orders.

We are in completely uncharted territory here and pretending it will just go away (with or without a vaccine) will just result in the death toll continuing to go up and up - leading to the question, at what point does society in general become desensitised to it and stop caring.

Again... We have never developed herd immunity to a disease and our track record of eradicating viruses isn't even worth considering.

There is no back-to-normal. We are going to have to live (and die) with this virus for good now.

We have a virus that is more contagious and deadlier than anything we have faced for 100years and medicine, as it stands, is pretty much powerless (as the death toll shows).

There is no 'solving' this. There is only learning to live with it. And learning to live with it is going to take living a different way than we lived before.


The quicker the entire human race grasps this and stops the Trumpian head-in-the-sand, "it'll just go away" or that a vaccine somehow magically eradicates a deadly virus in half a football season. When no other vaccine, bar one, has ever worked and that took decades.

What a load of crap. We might not have eradicated diseases but we have come pretty close. Small pox almost globally non existence. Measles is nowhere near as prevalent as it used to be thanks to vaccines (and no thanks to Andrew Wakefield), the same for mumps and rubella. The more people vaccinated the less likelihood of the disease being able to spread. That's your herd immunity. It doesn't mean everyone is immune it just means someone with the infection is less likely to meet someone else who can catch it.

 

[father_and_son]

a list of virus we barely hear of due to vaccines.

Measles and Rubella are perfect examples. Rarely life threatening but very unpleasant and most prevalent among children. You'd have thought that parents everywhere would want to protect their children and vaccinate them from these (and in turn) eradicate the problem.
But no, decades after a vaccine they still hit the headlines when the infection rate spikes.

Influenza..? Yeah because we have got really close to wiping that out.
We have a stab at guessing which strain will hit this year and vaccinate a load of old and sick (mostly) people each winter... Then next year we do the same because the vaccine has no real influence in wiping out the problem, just minimising the impact - thousands still die every year. And Coronavirus is deadlier and more contagious.

I have no idea what the answer is, I'm just saying going back to the way things were really shouldn't be an option. Unless we want to continue to have thousands die we need to genuinely and permanently change how we exist. And although I'm talking about life in general it applies to mass gatherings like football matches. Putting 30k people into an enclosed space (like the Amex concourse) just isn't going to be a 'safe' thing to do even after a vaccine. Packed trains with a hundred people stood up in every carriage? Plain crazy!

Sadly, I think what will happen is we'll see thousands, if not tens of thousands die every year and stop giving a shit. Most of us will be asymptomatic anyway so it'll only be the sick and elderly that need to keep having vaccinations to maintain immunity and the medical profession will cross their fingers every year that they guessed which strain will hit and distributed the right vaccine (and that it still works).
.

 

[father_and_son]

What a load of crap. We might not have eradicated diseases but we have come pretty close. Small pox almost globally non existence. Measles is nowhere near as prevalent as it used to be thanks to vaccines (and no thanks to Andrew Wakefield), the same for mumps and rubella. The more people vaccinated the less likelihood of the disease being able to spread. That's your herd immunity. It doesn't mean everyone is immune it just means someone with the infection is less likely to meet someone else who can catch it.

Well done humanity... We have gotten rid of ONE, smallpox - but it took decades. That's our benchmark for the chances of getting rid of this virus ahead of next season.

 

[Swansman]

Measles and Rubella are perfect examples. Rarely life threatening but very unpleasant and most prevalent among children. You'd have thought that parents everywhere would want to protect their children and vaccinate them from these (and in turn) eradicate the problem.
But no, decades after a vaccine they still hit the headlines when the infection rate spikes.

Influenza..? Yeah because we have got really close to wiping that out.
We have a stab at guessing which strain will hit this year and vaccinate a load of old and sick (mostly) people each winter... Then next year we do the same because the vaccine has no real influence in wiping out the problem, just minimising the impact - thousands still die every year. And Coronavirus is deadlier and more contagious.

I have no idea what the answer is, I'm just saying going back to the way things were really shouldn't be an option. Unless we want to continue to have thousands die we need to genuinely and permanently change how we exist. And although I'm talking about life in general it applies to mass gatherings like football matches. Putting 30k people into an enclosed space (like the Amex concourse) just isn't going to be a 'safe' thing to do even after a vaccine. Packed trains with a hundred people stood up in every carriage? Plain crazy!

Sadly, I think what will happen is we'll see thousands, if not tens of thousands die every year and stop giving a shit. Most of us will be asymptomatic anyway so it'll only be the sick and elderly that need to keep having vaccinations to maintain immunity and the medical profession will cross their fingers every year that they guessed which strain will hit and distributed the right vaccine (and that it still works).
.

Did you have this opinion in the past as well?

Because you could get the flu on a football game, and die from it. You could get the flu on a train, and die from it.

Tens of thousands die every year from the flu, and no one really gives a shit other than taking the jab and getting on with life.

Why is this any different? Why would covid-19 permanently change the way of living when i.e. the flu never did?

 

[father_and_son]

Did you have this opinion in the past as well?

Because you could get the flu on a football game, and die from it. You could get the flu on a train, and die from it.

Tens of thousands die every year from the flu, and no one really gives a shit other than taking the jab and getting on with life.

Why is this any different? Why would covid-19 permanently change the way of living when i.e. the flu never did?

The fact that ten of thousand die of flu and no one gives a shit and you are applying the same logic to something deadlier and more contagious says everything about how we'll live with this... We'll just let people die because, f**k it, it's always someone else who does the dying... Right up until it's you or someone you care about.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Hmmmm...think I’ll pass

 

[Swansman]

The fact that ten of thousand die of flu and no one gives a shit and you are applying the same logic to something deadlier and more contagious says everything about how we'll live with this... We'll just let people die because, f**k it, it's always someone else who does the dying... Right up until it's you or someone you care about.

Yes. There is no option. People die, it is a harsh part of reality. I'm not going to isolate myself or stay away from people just because some people die from influenza every year and I'm not going to isolate myself or stay away from people just because some people (though considerably less than now) are probably going to die from Covid 19 even when the worst is over.

 

[father_and_son]

Yes. There is no option. People die, it is a harsh part of reality. I'm not going to isolate myself or stay away from people just because some people die from influenza every year and I'm not going to isolate myself or stay away from people just because some people (though considerably less than now) are probably going to die from Covid 19 even when the worst is over.

There is an option. We change.

We don't stay indoors and hideaway but we don't pretend that everything is the same as it was in 2019.

 

[Swansman]

There is an option. We change.

We don't stay indoors and hideaway but we don't pretend that everything is the same as it was in 2019.

Nah. I'm good. You can change if you want to, but I won't. Once the worst is over I'll be back to partying like its 2019. People died from viruses that year as well; I did not give a ****. Did you, or did you i.e. go to any football games in the 18/19 season?

People are going to die from viruses next year as well. And the next one. People would have died because of viruses with or without Covid-19, just like they did before Covid-19. Yes, 2020 was different from other years, but what we are hoping to achieve with the vaccines is a return to normality. Normality never meant 0 deaths. Its not a realistic target and never will be unless we live our lives completely isolated from other humans and nature.

 

[Napper]

Nah. I'm good. You can change if you want to, but I won't. Once the worst is over I'll be back to partying like its 2019. People died from viruses that year as well; I did not give a ****. Did you, or did you i.e. go to any football games in the 18/19 season?

People are going to die from viruses next year as well. And the next one. People would have died because of viruses with or without Covid-19, just like they did before Covid-19. Yes, 2020 was different from other years, but what we are hoping to achieve with the vaccines is a return to normality. Normality never meant 0 deaths. Its not a realistic target and never will be unless we live our lives completely isolated from other humans and nature.

Spot on !!

 

[blue-shifted]

There is an option. We change.

We don't stay indoors and hideaway but we don't pretend that everything is the same as it was in 2019.

Fine if that's what you want to do. Nobody will tell you, you can't.

Personally, I want to copulate with strangers, sing the Bissouma song at the top of my voice from WSU and crowd surf at gigs.

I confidently predict i'll be doing at least one of these by next Easter

 

[drew]

The fact that ten of thousand die of flu and no one gives a shit and you are applying the same logic to something deadlier and more contagious says everything about how we'll live with this... We'll just let people die because, f**k it, it's always someone else who does the dying... Right up until it's you or someone you care about.

Well people do give a shit about people dying from flu but it is considerably less than Covid 19. If the country didn't give a shit then we wouldn't waste time giving the flu jab to the vulnerable. Average flu deaths are about 15k a year with 2018/19 only about 1700 died. So, not the 'tens of thousands' that you seem to be promoting!

 

[Pint of Ale and a Burger]

Hmmmm...think I’ll pass

Maupay?6 yards out with an open goal.

 

[sydney]

Brilliant.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, Parliamentary time is very limited. They set this debate up as a matter of semi-urgency, well before the announcement of the second lockdown.

Also, lockdown is the perfect time to have it as, by the time we come out of it, and assuming football gets some form of green light to let people back in, then it will be ready as soon as possible to get going. What's the point in procrastinating?

they will defer any decision until after dec 4th .....you can bet you teeth on it.....particularly when the health guru's 4k deaths a day ensues.

 

[Notters]

Don't disagree but its the double standards applied across the board that offend me. Pubs shut at 10, not in the HoC they didn't until the press got hold of it. If you are going to blast Grouse there is usually a social event around it, you have to pitch up at the moor, you need peasants to be bused in to scare the birds etc etc. Not to the same scale clearly but its either social distance or it isn't?

My problem is with how they exploit their privilege rather than whether football can support crowds again which is a more complex question.

Maybe if people stopped voting for the posh tossers we wouldn't have this problem?

 

[LlcoolJ]

No disease in the past 100 years has led to stay-at-home orders.

We are in completely uncharted territory here and pretending it will just go away (with or without a vaccine) will just result in the death toll continuing to go up and up - leading to the question, at what point does society in general become desensitised to it and stop caring.

Again... We have never developed herd immunity to a disease and our track record of eradicating viruses isn't even worth considering.

There is no back-to-normal. We are going to have to live (and die) with this virus for good now.

We have a virus that is more contagious and deadlier than anything we have faced for 100years and medicine, as it stands, is pretty much powerless (as the death toll shows).

There is no 'solving' this. There is only learning to live with it. And learning to live with it is going to take living a different way than we lived before.


The quicker the entire human race grasps this and stops the Trumpian head-in-the-sand, "it'll just go away" or that a vaccine somehow magically eradicates a deadly virus in half a football season. When no other vaccine, bar one, has ever worked and that took decades.

So many things wrong with this post that I didn't know where to start. Fortunately it's already been dissected and binned by other people. So I shall just say, I disagree.

 

[Seasidesage]

Maybe if people stopped voting for the posh tossers we wouldn't have this problem?

I can assure you that I never have!