Well Done UKIP.

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Fair comment, things were different when the Krays were around.

Change is a terrible thing, women getting the vote, gays being allowed to marry, Little and Large no longer on TV, it's all change isn't it?

Change can be great. It's not always a bad thing.

Change can also be bad. It's not always a good thing.

Seeing as this is a football message board, modern football can show you that.

 

[El Presidente]

Can any pro European parliament supporter explain why being ruled by Europe is such a good thing.
The EU,cost this country £50m a day.
It is undemocratic.
It is full of corruption.
They haven't ratified their accounts for 13 years.

I just don't see what's to like.

Reform the EU and then maybe people would warm to it,but in it's present state it's a club that people all across Europe want to leave.


If nothing else UKIP is making the parties take notice.

1: The NET contribution to the EU is far less than £50 million a day especially compared to the £850 billion cost of bailing out the banks in 2008. The benefits to trade for businesses operating within the EU exceed the net contribution in terms of lower prices and greater choice. Add to that issues such as the cost to the public purse of privatisation, outsourcing, a failure to regulate the financial services sector, and the iceberg cost of PFI and you're being conned into thinking where the major threats to public sector finance exist.

2: There is an element of democracy, otherwise why vote for UKIP and the other eurosceptic parties in the European elections.

3: There is corruption in this country too, just look at the sweetheart deals signed by the likes of Vodafone and Goldman Sachs by faceless bureaucrats who then were given six figure salaried jobs in the private sector. Lobbying by interested parties and MP's with their snouts in the trough from ALL parties.

4: Agree totally about the accounts, it's a scandal, as is the CAP. There's a lot that needs reforming, as there is domestically.

 

[User removed 4]

Don't make it simple for him, he can't handle that.

Here's your answer..........cock


http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/1.16

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Why reduce it to Pro-European Parliament (status quo) supporters? It's so polarising.

You're suggestion that the EU needs reform is right. But how far? UKIP seem to think it involves pulling out of the EU. Not a good idea at all.

And the other thing that bothers me is the blurring between legal and illegal immigration (not that you are making this point). Illegal immigration will happen no matter what. That's why it's illegal.

As for account ratification. Have UKIP ratified theirs? I don't know... http://www.channel4.com/news/the-publishers-and-lords-bankrolling-ukip-factcheck (just threw this link in for interest).

Not getting at you. Just supporting your point that a sensible discussion about Europe is good. A nonsensical one - which I know UKIP are using to stoke fears and grab votes - is not.

Fair comment,but your last sentence is exactly the point I was making...if it wasn't for UKIP there would be no discussion on Europe,the three main parties would've carried on as if nothing had changed. I don't think Cameron would be in the EU parliament now discussing the change to the EU if UKIP hadn't risen up.

 

[Leighgull]

1: The NET contribution to the EU is far less than £50 million a day especially compared to the £850 billion cost of bailing out the banks in 2008. The benefits to trade for businesses operating within the EU exceed the net contribution in terms of lower prices and greater choice. Add to that issues such as the cost to the public purse of privatisation, outsourcing, a failure to regulate the financial services sector, and the iceberg cost of PFI and you're being conned into thinking where the major threats to public sector finance exist.

2: There is an element of democracy, otherwise why vote for UKIP and the other eurosceptic parties in the European elections.

3: There is corruption in this country too, just look at the sweetheart deals signed by the likes of Vodafone and Goldman Sachs by faceless bureaucrats who then were given six figure salaried jobs in the private sector. Lobbying by interested parties and MP's with their snouts in the trough from ALL parties.

4: Agree totally about the accounts, it's a scandal, as is the CAP. There's a lot that needs reforming, as there is domestically.

Are there economists who want Britain out of the EU EP? I know there are a lot of things that should be changed but is it fair to say that British economists want us in?

 

[El Presidente]

Fair comment,but your last sentence is exactly the point I was making...if it wasn't for UKIP there would be no discussion on Europe,the three main parties would've carried on as if nothing had changed. I don't think Cameron would be in the EU parliament now discussing the change to the EU if UKIP hadn't risen up.

That's a very fair analysis. There is too cosy a relationship between the established parties.

My view is that migration, compared to the other issues I have highlighted, is relatively insignificant as a problem facing the economy of an ageing population.

 

[beorhthelm]

1: The NET contribution to the EU is far less than £50 million a day especially compared to the £850 billion cost of bailing out the banks in 2008.

call me Pavlov, not going to let that past: the bail out did not cost £850Bn. lets not confuse loans and guarantees that was never spent with money spent. carry on, though what is the net cost? im reckoning about £8-10Mn a day?

 

[El Presidente]

Are there economists who want Britain out of the EU EP? I know there are a lot of things that should be changed but is it fair to say that British economists want us in?

Absolutely there are economists who want out of the EU, but they are few and far between.

The arguments for membership are mainly economic, the arguments against are an understandable fear of rule from Brussels.

 

[El Presidente]

call me Pavlov, not going to let that past: the bail out did not cost £850Bn. lets not confuse loans and guarantees that was never spent with money spent. carry on, though what is the net cost? im reckoning about £8-10Mn a day?

I reckon £22 million.

 

[Hamilton]

Here's your answer..........cock


http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/1.16

You are, to borrow a phrase, a loser of gargantuan proportions.

 

[Hamilton]

Are there economists who want Britain out of the EU EP? I know there are a lot of things that should be changed but is it fair to say that British economists want us in?

I think this analogy is quite useful - albeit on a different subject...

http://www.defendourclimate.ca/2014/05/no-debate-on-climate-change/

 

[Buzzer]

Just supporting your point that a sensible discussion about Europe is good. A nonsensical one - which I know UKIP are using to stoke fears and grab votes - is not.

You write as if the Pro camp have the moral advantage here but if El Pres and others' contributions on here are anything to go by then it's a mixture of ripping the piss out of UKIP voters (yeah - that tactic worked last week didn't it?), smearing them with all sorts of innuendo and my goodness a lot of the Pro camp do love a good sneer. That's hardly covering yourselves with glory.

And then there's the tales of economic meltdown if we chose to go our own way. As someone else pointed out, we've been there before haven't we with the Euro. Remember all the scare stories? A two-tier Europe? Britain left all by itself? Didn't the FTSE 100s also support that? And as I've asked several times on here but not had any answer - are we really taking advice on Europe from the likes of Tesco's and Barclays Bank? Have they suddenly become altruistic or is this a case of them looking after their own interests?

And why is it that those who so often rail against a Government at home that always puts money over social/cultural and basic freedoms have absolutely no qualms arguing that none of that matters in Europe as long as the big companies have less VAT paperwork to do?

I'm not a UKIP supporter, I hope I've made that very clear in the past but this constant mix of doom-mongering and frankly pathetic name-calling does the Pro-camp no favours at all because aside from your chums on the Guardian comments page and on Twitter, I don't think anyone else is taking a blind bit of notice.

 

[Soulman]

It depends whether his four kids are living here with him. If not, then the answer is a clear YES. Quite a few East Europeans have come here, sleep 6 to a room and send money back home for two years.

He'll also be contributing to the UK state pension pot, which he is highly unlikely to be drawing from in 40 years time.

According to [MENTION=31]El Presidente[/MENTION], you won't find many (any?) economists in favour of exiting the EU, for precisely this sort of reason.

Having worked with a few Eastern Europeans on the sites (i like the Poles best) the ones i knew would work for about a year, go home for a few months.
They would get a full tax rebate.
One of them Wojek, also got Child benefit sent over, at roughly £20 a child, his 3 children would get about £60 a week. Now considering he was not qualified, he was on about the equivalent of £250 per month in Poland at the time. So his CB would cover his wages, his wages here came in handy, and the tax back at the end.
So really he was putting nothing into the pension pot and nothing towards our tax. Nice bloke though.

 

[Leighgull]

I can't stand that prat Farage and his self satisfied grin...the way he bounces on his tiptoes when he's pleased with himself and his beery bonhomie. But. I have a lot more time for him than old looks weird sounds weird is weird Miliband and Plate face Cameron...clegg...forget him, complete non entity although at least he has been honest about wanting us in the EU.

 

[looney]

Absolutely there are economists who want out of the EU, but they are few and far between.

The arguments for membership are mainly economic, the arguments against are an understandable fear of rule from Brussels.

Not correct, their are quite a few who want the UK and some are concerned with MIS-rule by Brussels. Others consider it a poor economic choice, considering mis alignment of business cycles, differences in structure of debt and investment etc etc etc.

The main reason given for joining was it would become cheaper to borrow money, that was before the banking collapse and resulting liquidity trap.

 

[looney]

Absolutely there are economists who want out of the EU, but they are few and far between.

The arguments for membership are mainly economic, the arguments against are an understandable fear of rule from Brussels.

Few and far between?

http://www.economist.com/debate/overview/220

 

[Mo Gosfield]

That's a very fair analysis. There is too cosy a relationship between the established parties.

Turkeys voting for Christmas analogy appropriate here. The EU is a bureaucratic gravy train. An enormous pension fund for many politicians throughout Europe.
Everyone knows that this is the most corrupt operation on the face of planet Earth but no politician alive would turn down the opportunity to double or treble their salary whilst shuffling paperwork in Brussels.

 

[Simster]

Having worked with a few Eastern Europeans on the sites (i like the Poles best) the ones i knew would work for about a year, go home for a few months.
They would get a full tax rebate.
One of them Wojek, also got Child benefit sent over, at roughly £20 a child, his 3 children would get about £60 a week. Now considering he was not qualified, he was on about the equivalent of £250 per month in Poland at the time. So his CB would cover his wages, his wages here came in handy, and the tax back at the end.
So really he was putting nothing into the pension pot and nothing towards our tax. Nice bloke though.

It would be interesting to see how many hard working tax net contributors there are from Poland for every one of these leech opportunists. I am struggling to believe your anecdotal example is representative at all.

 

[User removed 4]

You are, to borrow a phrase, a loser of gargantuan proportions.

Well thought out counter argument, ie, you can't muster one, which is why you resorted to the 'loser' tag, I'd be interested in how you know anything about my circumstances?

 

[User removed 4]

It would be interesting to see how many hard working tax net contributors there are from Poland for every one of these leech opportunists. I am struggling to believe your anecdotal example is representative at all.

How many sites have you worked on to be in a position to question his anecdotal evidence ?