Welcome to Gaza

[Biscuit]

Can't we just make a new island and plop Palestine on it and end this awful, evil, unjustified killing?!

 

[brighton bluenose]

I think it's difficult to pass judgement on what Israel should have done. We don't know what it's like to be surrounded by countries that would like to wipe us of the face of the planet. A day in their shoes. Had Israel have done everything they were supposed to do, I doubt they'd still be there.
QUOTE]

OK so robbing the land, murdering indiscriminately and alienating an entire people (and region)) has achieved what for Israels security? A slightly different view is that Israel doesn't want 'peace' and is prepared to continue stealing Arab land as part of its long term expansionist policies!

In a wider context the 'wests' actions over the last 150 years in the Middle East along with it's hypocrisy over the treatment of Israel compared to it's neighbours has led, in part, to the rise of the Islam-fascism that now tries to threaten the survival of western democracy!!

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Eem, so in a nutshell, The UN in 1947 after consultations and a vote gave a mandate for two countries. Palestine and Israel.

The Jewish people accepted the UN decision, the Palestinians did not.

A few months after Israel was up and running as a sovereign country, the Palestinians along with help from their neighbours Syria, Egypt and Jordan attacked the newly created state of Israel and attempted to totally overrun it and destroy it. The Israelis won the war and as a result of such hostility towards its very survival, took the decision to keep some of the land on its borders, i.e. Gaza and west bank previously owned by Syria and Jordan as a security measure.

So if you engage in a violent act to try to destroy a country and you lose and you end up losing some of your own land as a result, why would you expect sympathy.

Knock, knock - Mrs Jules 'Go and see who that is at the door dear'
Mr Jules - "Hello, who are you ?"
Soldier - "I'm from the League of Nations"
Mr Jules - "What can I do for you ?"
Soldier - "Well we plan to create a new country and unfortunately sir your property falls within that area. So would you kindly f**k off somewhere else."

Hmmm ....... I'm sure you would say yes.

 

[leigull]

Spot on. I am currently in Haifa Israel. Jews, Christians, Arabs, Bahai people all out in the spring sunshine enjoying life. If only the nutters in Gaza could enjoy life, without reverting to terror & destruction, then Egypt, the western world & Israel would reopen the borders. In the meantime you have to protect your own security.

Yeah looks at these nutters. Why aren't they having more fun?

 

[Triggaaar]

Palestine

They didn't, Palestine wasn't a country.

 

[Triggaaar]

Yeah looks at these nutters. Why aren't they having more fun?

Are they the leaders of Hamas?

 

[Steve Foster]

Yeah looks at these nutters. Why aren't they having more fun?

Check out the Arab conditions in Israel or the Arab conditions in the West Bank. No wonder that they want little to do with Hamas in Gaza. A photo tells a thousand words but it doesn't show you what's round the corner. Nice houses, shops well stocked etc. it's called propaganda. There is no votes for Hamas without having the evil of Israel ...

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

Eem, so in a nutshell, The UN in 1947 after consultations and a vote gave a mandate for two countries. Palestine and Israel.

The Jewish people accepted the UN decision, the Palestinians did not.

A few months after Israel was up and running as a sovereign country, the Palestinians along with help from their neighbours Syria, Egypt and Jordan attacked the newly created state of Israel and attempted to totally overrun it and destroy it. The Israelis won the war and as a result of such hostility towards its very survival, took the decision to keep some of the land on its borders, i.e. Gaza and west bank previously owned by Syria and Jordan as a security measure.

So if you engage in a violent act to try to destroy a country and you lose and you end up losing some of your own land as a result, why would you expect sympathy.

Why such a one sided view point?

 

[Diego Napier]

They didn't, Palestine wasn't a country.

I understand the strictly accurate and somewhat pedantic point you're making nevertheless it misses my point.

Palestine was an area of land in which Arabs had lived since prehistoric times albeit under a multitude of different invaders.(Ironically their ancestors were probably a mix of Christians, Jews and Arabs). In spite of sometimes horrific conditions, none of their rulers had forced an exodus on them until the British and our desire to extricate ourselves from our colonial cock-up coincided with the enormous wave of post holocaust sympathy for the diaspora. Israel was created by moving people forcibly from land they had occupied for millennia thereby "solving" one problem and creating another.

People would react to being forcibly displaced whether they live in Sussex in a "proper" country or in Nazareth in Palestine or in the West Bank in "Israel".

 

[Triggaaar]

I understand the strictly accurate and somewhat pedantic point you're making nevertheless it misses my point.

I wasn't making a pedantic point, I was being quite sincere. It's important to realise it was not a country that people suddenly tried to take away. As you say, the inhabitants were a mix of religions, they were not just Muslims. And it wasn't a British colonial cock-up that had put palestine in the situation it was in pre-war, it had been ruled by the Ottoman Empire and had Jews immigrating long before Britain got drawn in because of the first world war. If the Jews and Muslims had been happy to live in Palestine together, then international involvement wouldn't have been necessary.

People would react to being forcibly displaced whether they live in Sussex in a "proper" country or in Nazareth in Palestine or in the West Bank in "Israel".

Yes and I have sympathy for those that were displaced, and for the Jews who had been orphaned and kicked out of their homes in Europe. There couldn't have been a solution that pleased everyone. Perhaps you think the best solution was just to leave Palestine to find it's own way, so the Jews would have eventually been killed off and we wouldn't have this problem - if not, what do you think should have been done?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Perhaps you think the best solution was just to leave Palestine to find it's own way, so the Jews would have eventually been killed off and we wouldn't have this problem - if not, what do you think should have been done?

Why, if Israel hadn't been created, would have the Jews been killed off ? They were a dispersed people prior to the Nazi rise to power, they could have been once again after we had defeated the Nazis.

Israel was created because of the guilt of Britain and America having turned a blind eye to the slaughter of Jews in the 1930s.. There was no need to displace another set of people to satisfy our guilt complex.

 

[Triggaaar]

Why, if Israel hadn't been created, would have the Jews been killed off ?

I wasn't referring to the Jews that remained in Europe, but those that were in Palestine.

But anyway, we digress - Palestine, for better or worse, was split into two States. It seems that you don't blame Israel or the Jews for that, so what are you suggesting Israel does? Understand the anger of their neighbours and leave, or be passive and allow themselves to get invaded?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

It seems that you don't blame Israel or the Jews for that, so what are you suggesting Israel does? Understand the anger of their neighbours and leave, or be passive and allow themselves to get invaded?

Stick to international law and UN resolutions would be a good start.

 

[BrickTamland]

They didn't, Palestine wasn't a country.

Through various agreement with the British during WW1 it was given independence to the Arabs only for them to stabbed in the back by the Sykes-Picot agreement which was done in secret by Britain and France with no consultation of the actual people living there. Regardless of whether Palestine was a 'nation' or 'country' (by our own definitions of those meanings) is in some way besides the point. The people who lived there who did identify as being Palestinian (a mixture of religions and ethnicities) had ties and claim to that land. For them to be lied to after being promised independence in return for supporting the British in the war is a crime in itself. Regardless of it officially being a country or not, 'outsiders' (ie the French and British) just suddenly deciding to support a mass movement of people into land you were only a few years before assured was yours was always going to lead to long lasting issues.

I'm not in support of groups such as Hamas as they make the issue religious and not simply political which doesn't do them any favours as post 9/11 any Islamic group isn't going to gain much if any support from the west so they do more harm than good to the people of Palestine. It's a horrible state of affairs and incredibly complicated and both sides are guilty in wrongdoing. I'm just sick of people ignoring the legitimate (imo) grievances the people have, whilst supporting the land grabbing tactics (which aren't in self defence, the initial advance after the war might have been but now it's not) and constant refusal to listen to UN humanitarian wishes.

 

[Camicus]

IF Israel wanted to commit genocide they would simply turn off the water and electricity supplies they do not. If Israel just wanted to make Gaza suffer they wouldn't give food medical supplies and other materials to Gaza.Its also worth noting that if Egypt opened its crossing points then there would be no blockade For all of you saying Israel is anti Palestinian you should see the difference in living standards in Gaza and the West bank. Its anti hamas not anti Palestinian. Another point since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005, terrorists have fired more than 11,000 rockets into Israel. Over 5 million Israelis are currently living under threat of rocket attacks. More than half a million Israelis have less than 60 seconds to find shelter after a rocket is launched from Gaza into Israel. If that was landing in your town what would you do? It says it all when you would sooner rearm re dig your attack tunnels than help your citizens.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

IF Israel wanted to commit genocide they would simply turn off the water and electricity supplies they do not. If Israel just wanted to make Gaza suffer they wouldn't give food medical supplies and other materials to Gaza.Its also worth noting that if Egypt opened its crossing points then there would be no blockade For all of you saying Israel is anti Palestinian you should see the difference in living standards in Gaza and the West bank. Its anti hamas not anti Palestinian. Another point since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005, terrorists have fired more than 11,000 rockets into Israel. Over 5 million Israelis are currently living under threat of rocket attacks. More than half a million Israelis have less than 60 seconds to find shelter after a rocket is launched from Gaza into Israel. If that was landing in your town what would you do? It says it all when you would sooner rearm re dig your attack tunnels than help your citizens.

I assume then you would have objected to the French Resistance ? After all, France could have lived fairly well under the Nazis if they had conceded to their land grab.

 

[spence]

IF Israel wanted to commit genocide they would simply turn off the water and electricity supplies they do not. If Israel just wanted to make Gaza suffer they wouldn't give food medical supplies and other materials to Gaza.Its also worth noting that if Egypt opened its crossing points then there would be no blockade For all of you saying Israel is anti Palestinian you should see the difference in living standards in Gaza and the West bank. Its anti hamas not anti Palestinian. Another point since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005, terrorists have fired more than 11,000 rockets into Israel. Over 5 million Israelis are currently living under threat of rocket attacks. More than half a million Israelis have less than 60 seconds to find shelter after a rocket is launched from Gaza into Israel. If that was landing in your town what would you do? It says it all when you would sooner rearm re dig your attack tunnels than help your citizens.

Egypt see Hamas as a terrorist group and want nothing to do with them. Funny that

 

[Triggaaar]

Stick to international law and UN resolutions would be a good start.

Like Hamas does, and like their neighbours did when they set about invading Israel.

 

[Camicus]

I assume then you would have objected to the French Resistance ? After all, France could have lived fairly well under the Nazis if they had conceded to their land grab.

Your an idiot. France wasn't the aggressor Palestine is. Funny you should mention Nazis Palestinians fought for the Germans in WWII the grand mufti even being a guest of Hitler on more than one occasion.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Your an idiot. France wasn't the aggressor Palestine is. Funny you should mention Nazis Palestinians fought for the Germans in WWII the grand mufti even being a guest of Hitler on more than one occasion.

The Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, was a nasty piece of work.

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Total/hitler.mufti.htm