[News] Weak prison sentencing

[Brian Fantana]

This feels like a thread which might soon be locked. Probably for the best, in my view.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I am girl A from this trial. His sentence is embarrassing. The police failed to mention I was only 8 years old and the "abuse" he was convicted for included counts of penetration. If you're genuinely interested in finding out more feel free to send me a message, I've kept everything from the case.

Do you think the charges of sexual assault should have been upgraded to rape? Well done on being brave enough to give evidence. It can't have been easy.

 

[kacie.phillips]

You will be pleased to know he was found in his cell bleeding from his ears and anus. God bless the boys at HMP Bullingdon

We don’t have plea bargaining in the U.K.
rightly or wrongly, we base our system on proving innocence or guilt.

In the U.S plea bargaining is the standard approach. That’s for a number of reasons.

There is more racism in the States.

You have a vast private prison network. Ours is going that way.

There is more poverty and social exclusion.

There are other elements feeding in to the situation. But the main difference is in the U.K. we try to prove innocence. In the U.S they try to get less jail time.

It’s a sad state of affairs.

This isn't entirely true. If he plead guilty when ge was 1st charged he would have got 50% off the recommended sentence. Any time after that untill the trial if he changed his plea he was offered 25% and if he plead guilty during any point of the actual trial it was 10%. He failed to plead guilty at any point. We were told at the beginning they were seeking a minimum of 10-12 years. The max ge could receive was 16. The judge gave him 7 years plus 1 year extended license and ordered him not to be eligible for parole untill he's served 2 thirds of his sentence instead of the standard half. Shocking sentence for the life long trauma he caused. The "abuse" he was convicted of included counts of penetration of girls aged 8-13

Cut his dick off and send him to Australia

 

[kacie.phillips]

Do you think the charges of sexual assault should have been upgraded to rape? Well done on being brave enough to give evidence. It can't have been easy.

The charge of "rape" are the same as "assault by penetration " when it's against a child. They mean the same thing but worded differently

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The charge of "rape" are the same as "assault by penetration " when it's against a child. They mean the same thing but worded differently

That's why I asked because under the age of 12, it is statutory rape.

I agree he should have got the maximum sentence available.

I hope you've had counselling to get through this. I can't imagine how this has impacted your life and relationships.

 

[kacie.phillips]

So 3 or 4 years, for destroying lives.

4 years 10 months as has to serve 2 thirds of his sentence. Our justice system is a disgrace

 

[kacie.phillips]

That's why I asked because under the age of 12, it is statutory rape.

I agree he should have got the maximum sentence available.

I hope you've had counselling to get through this. I can't imagine how this has impacted your life and relationships.

Thank you

 

[Zeberdi]

We don’t have plea bargaining in the U.K.
rightly or wrongly, we base our system on proving innocence or guilt.

Not sure what you are basing this on? Have you been watching Megan Markle in Suits to much?

When it comes to criminal prosecution, the UK and US system are both very similar prosecutorial systems

We have all sorts of pre-trial plea bargaining in the UK also around prosecuting and sentencing issues

1. Pleading guilty - courts will discount on sentence as it avoids the prosecution taking a case to trial, avoids witnesses and victims having to stand up in court and give evidence - the earlier the plea, the greater this will reduce sentence
2. Pleading guilty after the initial magistrate’s hearing - accused can still submit a later plea of not guilty and negotiate a lighter sentence on various grounds including if the prosecution have amended the earlier charge to include further chargeable offences.
3. The defence can submit pre-sentencing reports which can further reduce sentencing (by mitigation, psychiatric elements etc)

4. The defence will very often offer the prosecution a guilty plea but to a lesser offence eg where they might argue that there was no intent - thus attracting a much shorter sentence - this is a pre#trial negotiation between lawyers, one to have a reduced sentence, one side (the CPS,) wanting to avoid a costly trial.
Deals are made basically but the prosecution must consult victims before accepting plea bargains.
5. On multiple charges, the defendant may negotiate which offences he/she will plead guilty to and offer a quid pro quo - ie plead guilty for ‘this’ in exchange for dropping charges against ‘that’ where there might be evidential hurdles for the prosecution to prove on one more than the other.

There are other ways that sentencing can be reduced even before trial all by plea-bargaining.

Both the US and the UK legal system have evolved from common law (cf to European countries) and presentation of evidence, proceedings and rulings are largely the same.

Both systems support and encourage out of court settlement in civil disputes.

 

[Zeberdi]

Shocking sentence for the life long trauma he caused. The "abuse" he was convicted of included counts of penetration of girls aged 8-13

I agree and sorry you went through that - sentencing often doesn’t reflect the life changing impact on sexual offence or physical abuse victims.

 

[The Clamp]

Not sure what you are basing this on? Have you been watching Megan Markle in Suits to much?

When it comes to criminal prosecution, the UK and US system are both very similar prosecutorial systems

We have all sorts of pre-trial plea bargaining in the UK also around prosecuting and sentencing issues

1. Pleading guilty - courts will discount on sentence as it avoids the prosecution taking a case to trial, avoids witnesses and victims having to stand up in court and give evidence - the earlier the plea, the greater this will reduce sentence
2. Pleading guilty after the initial magistrate’s hearing - accused can still submit a later plea of not guilty and negotiate a lighter sentence on various grounds including if the prosecution have amended the earlier charge to include further chargeable offences.
3. The defence can submit pre-sentencing reports which can further reduce sentencing (by mitigation, psychiatric elements etc)

4. The defence will very often offer the prosecution a guilty plea but to a lesser offence eg where they might argue that there was no intent - thus attracting a much shorter sentence - this is a pre#trial negotiation between lawyers, one to have a reduced sentence, one side (the CPS,) wanting to avoid a costly trial.
Deals are made basically but the prosecution must consult victims before accepting plea bargains.
5. On multiple charges, the defendant may negotiate which offences he/she will plead guilty to and offer a quid pro quo - ie plead guilty for ‘this’ in exchange for dropping charges against ‘that’ where there might be evidential hurdles for the prosecution to prove on one more than the other.

There are other ways that sentencing can be reduced even before trial all by plea-bargaining.

Both the US and the UK legal system have evolved from common law (cf to European countries) and presentation of evidence, proceedings and rulings are largely the same.

Both systems support and encourage out of court settlement in civil disputes.

Such bargaining is not officially part of the system in England and Wales, except in complex fraud cases, but the judicial sentencing guidelines suggests those who plead guilty at the earliest hearing over other crimes may be given a reduction of up to a third of their sentence.

The main difference is that in the U.S it’s an agreed upon deal.

In the U.K. you can plead guilty and hope it goes in your favour. But that’s not guaranteed .

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Just seems that lawyer are way more about making plea deals nowadays than they ever have been in the past. Want to cut down on court costs? Other reasons? Whatever it is, I don't totally agree with it as some criminals should really get way harsher sentences than they do.

No, it doesn't work like that in the UK. There is likely to be a lighter sentence (within the recommended range) if the accused pleads guilty (when they are clearly guilty), especially if it saves a victim from having to give evidence. But we don't do what we hear about happening in the US, with deals whereby admitting guilt to a lesser charge is used to reduce court time and costs and in return for reduced length of sentences.

Edit: @The Clamp beat me to it

 

[el punal]

At least that piece of filth who murdered his pregnant missus and 3 kids with a claw hammer (raping one of them as she was dying - she was 11) will never, ever see the light of day again in his lifetime.

I'm not an advocate for the death sentence, but in THAT case...I think I'd make an exception.

Better still - use an ‘oubliette’. This was a medieval French punishment that required the offender to be thrown from a chimney type hatch into an underground pit with concave walls, thus making it impossible for him to climb out. There he would remain until his demise - open to the elements, living in his own filth, jeered and abused by on-lookers from above, starved and thirsty. A long and miserable existence with no respite.

The term ‘oubliette’ means to be forgotten - rather appropriate in my opinion.

 

[The Clamp]

I’m not sure where Zerberdi copied and pasted that large tract of text from?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I must say that it would please me if Labour make a decision to not pander to the pollsters and focus groups of Daily Mail and Star readers when planning their post-victory strategy. Here are a few mutually incompatible issues they will have to navigate, each of which will be weaponized before and after the next general election:

Lower taxes
Better railways
Better roads
More nurses and doctors
Fewer immigrants
Make it easier to get a hospital appointment
Ban strikes by public sector workers
Lower the energy bills
Allow more privatization
Ban foreign ownership
Bring back hanging, especially for kiddy-fiddlers
Longer prison sentences across the board
An end to Political Correctness
An end to The Nanny State
The return of traditional British freedoms like foxhunting
No concessions to the EU, such as rejoining the single market

Also....it is tedious having a brand new thread on yet another societal or governmental shortcoming when the first requirement to fix anything - higher taxes - is ruled out from the off. Stop whining if you don't want change. I am sure someone will pop along in a minute to tell me that increasing taxes does not provide HMG with more money, and that public spending has no effect on the availability or quality of public services. If so, will they admit that the only explanation left for the mess we are in is that the tories have deliberately f***ed the nation up the arse? Even I don't believe that, albeit I do believe they have an element within working to deliberately sabotage public services. And I am not persuaded by the voices on the extreme left and right that voting changes nothing. If that were true then only insurrection, or disappearing in a cloud of ganga smoke would make any sense.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Better still - use an ‘oubliette’. This was a medieval French punishment that required the offender to be thrown from a chimney type hatch into an underground pit with concave walls, thus making it impossible for him to climb out. There he would remain until his demise - open to the elements, living in his own filth, jeered and abused by on-lookers from above, starved and thirsty. A long and miserable existence with no respite.

The term ‘oubliette’ means to be forgotten - rather appropriate in my opinion.

Feel better now?

We won't ever stop savagery by becoming savages ourselves.

 

[Zeberdi]

Such bargaining is not officially part of the system in England and Wales, except in complex fraud cases, b

Sorry but that’s simply not true- it is common practice to plea bargain down a sentence before going to trial or avoiding trial altogether

What is plea bargaining and when will it come into play? - claims.co.uk ™

Plea bargaining, testimony against a co-conspirator, difficulty of proving a greater charge, different types of plea bargaining, What should an individual who has agreed to a plea bargain ensure happens, Has the process of plea bargaining come in for criticism

www.inbrief.co.uk

Nothing to do with fraud cases.

When I worked for a Criminal case solicitor after graduating from law school - the wrongs and rights of pre-trial negotiations was always a bone of contention but is is built into the system and there are rules of procedure and guidelines that need to be followed

It is not true that A: America does not have a system that the defendant must prove their innocence (it is the same as ours - prosecutorial) - this is compared to legal systems built on a inquisitorial process. (As in eg French legal system)
B/ it is also no true that the UK does not have plea bargaining

 

[Zeberdi]

I’m not sure where Zerberdi copied and pasted that large tract of text

Not from the Guardian newspaper that’s for sure!

. But we don't do what we hear about happening in the US, with deals whereby admitting guilt to a lesser charge is used to reduce court time and costs and in return for reduced length of sentences.

Yes we do though -

What is plea bargaining and when will it come into play? - claims.co.uk ™

Plea bargaining, testimony against a co-conspirator, difficulty of proving a greater charge, different types of plea bargaining, What should an individual who has agreed to a plea bargain ensure happens, Has the process of plea bargaining come in for criticism

www.inbrief.co.uk

Ps the author of that article has the same qualifications as I have - an LLB!

 

[The Clamp]

Sorry but that’s simply not true- it is common practice to plea bargain down a sentence before going to trial or avoiding trial altogether

What is plea bargaining and when will it come into play? - claims.co.uk ™

Plea bargaining, testimony against a co-conspirator, difficulty of proving a greater charge, different types of plea bargaining, What should an individual who has agreed to a plea bargain ensure happens, Has the process of plea bargaining come in for criticism

www.inbrief.co.uk

Nothing to do with fraud cases.

When I worked for a Criminal case solicitor after graduating from law school - the wrongs and rights of pre-trial negotiations was always a bone of contention but is is built into the system and there are rules of procedure and guidelines that need to be followed

It is not true that A: America does not have a system that the defendant must prove their innocence (it is the same as ours - prosecutorial) - this is compared to legal systems built on a inquisitorial process. (As in eg French legal system)
B/ it is also no true that the UK does not have plea bargaining

Thanks, I’ll have a look at that. I’ve been reading a bit on it and it appears I was wrong. I may have been right say, ten years ago but it’s definitely changed.

Mea culpa, I got it wrong it would appear.

 

[Zeberdi]

Thanks, I’ll have a look at that. I’ve been reading a bit on it and it appears I was wrong. I may have been right say, ten years ago but it’s definitely changed.

Mea culpa, I got it wrong it would appear.

Not wrong, just the incomplete picture maybe

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Not from the Guardian newspaper that’s for sure!

Yes we do though -

What is plea bargaining and when will it come into play? - claims.co.uk ™

Plea bargaining, testimony against a co-conspirator, difficulty of proving a greater charge, different types of plea bargaining, What should an individual who has agreed to a plea bargain ensure happens, Has the process of plea bargaining come in for criticism

www.inbrief.co.uk

Ps the author of that article has the same qualifications as I have - an LLB!

Your link rightly indicates that plea bargaining may occur in the UK - but in specific instances:

• where a defendant testifies against a co-conspirator;
• where a lesser charge is offered due to the difficulty of proving the greater charge.

Thus, to obtain some sort of justice when the chances would otherwise be slim.

I had in mind more grotesques miscarriages of justice, as seen in the US in cases of murders where the accused admits to manslaughter merely to save time and money in exchange for a lesser sentence. This is additionally facilitated when the accused has an unfair advantage such as immense wealth and the finest and tricksiest lawyers in the land, or in certain parts of America, when the accused is white and the defendant black. This egregious abuse doesn't happened in the UK to my knowledge, Kenneth Noye excepted (and his first murder acquittal was more to do with his connections with the police than the power of plea bargaining, to my recollection).