[Albion] Was TB right to sack Chris Hughton?

[Reinelt12]

Just because people believe the club were right to sack Hughton when they did doesn’t diminish what he achieved. It doesn’t mean they don’t appreciate what he did, or think he was in any way a bad manager.

Ranieri was sacked during the following season after Leicester won the league, was the right decision, he had achieved the near impossible, but then looked in danger of getting relegated. The club was a downturn and had to make a change.

It’s all about timing... Hughton got us to the Premier League, where several others had failed to do so, that achievement should not be understated.

Yet, the period from Jan to May 2019 showed the club was on a downturn and needed something to change... that change was made, it’s unfortunate it meant that the man who got us to the top table was sacked, but it was necessary.

 

[NooBHA]

Does Chris deserve this thread when it was obvious what the answer would be having just stayed up? Unsavoury stuff for a gentleman of the game who really achieved great things and lifted the club from some very drab times post Gus. Some people’s desire to keep kicking him I’ll never understand

Despite all the positive things said about Chris on this thread. This is the most important and best post.

 

[Bwian]

Does Chris deserve this thread when it was obvious what the answer would be having just stayed up? Unsavoury stuff for a gentleman of the game who really achieved great things and lifted the club from some very drab times post Gus. Some people’s desire to keep kicking him I’ll never understand

It's an obvious time to reflect. It looks as though we might be safe with 5 games still to play so the initial question is reasonable and timely. Just for some balance-Houghton was responsible for a long period of drab last season and that was what cost him his job.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[rippleman]

Yes. Yes he was.

I had got to the point where going to the Amex on a matchday was becoming an ordeal rather than something to look forward to and get excited about.

But my thoughts / feelings don't come into it. "He who pays the piper calls the tune". We are lucky that our owner is a lifelong fan of the club and if Mr Chairman was sick of watching turgid, negative football it was his right to sack CH. I'm pleased that he did.

 

[amexer]

When time is right and crowds back would still like to see Hughton as guest of honour of club so we can show our appreciation of what he achieved

 

[Jim in the West]

Now that we live in a stats-fuelled world, we can compare pretty much every detail of every match. I know some people don't take much notice of xG, but it DOES tell a story:

Last season BHA xG = 0.99 (19th best! Even Huddersfield had a better xG than us)
This season BHA xG = 1.62 (7th best)

And just in case we conclude that this dramatic change has been delivered by letting things slip at the back....

Last Season BHA xGA = 1.81 (4th worst! Almost the same as Fulham!!)
This Season BHA xGA = 1.44 (12th)

In other words, we've improved things massively in attack (increasing our chances of scoring by almost 100%), whilst also reducing our oppositions' chances of scoring.

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Presented in a less statty way, assuming Bissouma was generally second choice to Stephens last season, we started against Norwich with a different manager and style and only Ryan, Dunk and Propper who were first choice starters last season. It's therefore no surprise that the stats are different. The fact the change is so favourable is vindication of letting CH go albeit, in my case at least, with my gratitude.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

The thing that still amazes me is that Tony made the decision, when he did.
Like many others, I felt that achieving an FA cup semi-final, staying up and a double against Palace, should be seen as a good season and let's push on.
Pardew got a contract extension at Palace fora similar season ( no double obvs).

However, Tony has a vision of where the club needs to be. Chris's post-match comment of "More of the same" showed that Hughton wasn't aligned to Tony's vision.
I suspect that CH's answer to Tony's question "How do we become a top 10 side?" would have been "Spend more on players and wages".

When you look at where Tony has spent his money, that isn't the right answer.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

When time is right and crowds back would still like to see Hughton as guest of honour of club so we can show our appreciation of what he achieved

We will get our chance, when he comes back in his next job. (Hopefully in the Prem)

I hope we give him a fitting welcome.

 

[Stat Brother]

The thing that still amazes me is that Tony made the decision, when he did.
Like many others, I felt that achieving an FA cup semi-final, staying up and a double against Palace, should be seen as a good season and let's push on.
Pardew got a contract extension at Palace fora similar season ( no double obvs).

However, Tony has a vision of where the club needs to be. Chris's post-match comment of "More of thS same" showed that Hughton wasn't aligned to Tony's vision.
I suspect that CH's answer to Tony's question "How do we become a top 10 side?£ would have been "spend more on players and wages".

When you look at where Tony has spent his money, that isn't the right answer.

Again Tony made the decision because he'd had his head turned, with a potentially narrow window to get to the greener grass.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Again Tony made the decision because he'd had his head turned, with a potentially narrow window to get to the greener grass.

I suspect that may be true.

Probably something he learned following Poyet's departure.

 

[Icy Gull]

Does Chris deserve this thread when it was obvious what the answer would be having just stayed up? Unsavoury stuff for a gentleman of the game who really achieved great things and lifted the club from some very drab times post Gus. Some people’s desire to keep kicking him I’ll never understand

It was you who suggested early in the season that I was (along the lines of) a miserable negative sod who always turned when results were not going our way and would be on Potter’s back as soon as we were struggling. As it happens I haven’t moaned about the way we have been playing or the results, even when we were behind the curve on CH’s achievements pre lockdown.

It is your prerogative to be forever pissed off that CH was not given another season but if you choose to be blind to the fact that CH was unable to manage the team to play anything but football that stank the division out for the last few months of last season then that’s up to you.

CH was an absolute legend for what he did for this club and the last two seasons In the Championship were up there with the most enjoyable I have seen from an Albion team. Staying up in our first year was a massive achievement but he had reached the limits of his ability at this level imo and the end of last season was as bad as watching any Albion team since I watched us beat Palace 2-0 in 1976.

I am not kicking CH, I am suggesting that it was time for a change and it looks like it might have been the right decision. I would have wanted us to stick with GP even if we had/do go down this season.

This does not detract from the great years we had under him but every manager has a sell by date.

 

[vagabond]

Now that we live in a stats-fuelled world, we can compare pretty much every detail of every match. I know some people don't take much notice of xG, but it DOES tell a story:

Last season BHA xG = 0.99 (19th best! Even Huddersfield had a better xG than us)
This season BHA xG = 1.62 (7th best)

And just in case we conclude that this dramatic change has been delivered by letting things slip at the back....

Last Season BHA xGA = 1.81 (4th worst! Almost the same as Fulham!!)
This Season BHA xGA = 1.44 (12th)

In other words, we've improved things massively in attack (increasing our chances of scoring by almost 100%), whilst also reducing our oppositions' chances of scoring.

Seems pretty concrete evidence to me..

What do you say to this @%1; ?

 

[Finchley Seagull]

Webster continually makes mistakes and Dunky gets him out of trouble.

Mooy rarely looks like he can last the 90 mins

Lamptey has played 3 games. First looked great. The 2nd looked out of his depth albeit being played out of position.

And the third against an opponent who gave the ball away more often than San Marino on a bad day.

So hard to judge him yet.

I don't say they are bad signings. I just don't see them as anything special.

Maupay I like because he can occasionally make something out of nothing.

Webster had a bad spell around Christmas where he made a few mistakes. Either side of that, he has done well. And has looked very good since the Premier League restarted.

Mooy was arguably our best player between October and January. He has lost his way a bit since then, as did a lot of players, but signs on Saturday of a clear improvement.

Lamptey has had two very good games and one half game where he was out of position. Agreed we don't want to get carried away but he's had a very good start.

Maupay has had a very good first season at this level. Players very rarely come into a bottom six side and score more than 14-15 goals. His return of nine goals with five games left is very good in my view and he offers a lot more to the team.

Trossard has been up and down but has clear ability and hopefully will improve in the second season having had a season in the Premier League and maybe with a couple of better attackers to play alongside.

Considering our spend and the limitations we have, I think we had an excellent transfer record this season. And, barring Mooy, all the players are 25 or under, which means they have plenty of potential to develop

 

[Acker79]

Seems pretty concrete evidence to me..

What do you say to this @%1; ?

I know this isn't directed at me, but I think of all the stats in the world of football xG is the one that irritates me the most.

If you look at actual goals, rather than 'what could have been' we scored 35 last season putting us 17th. Improving on xG by two places. This season we have 35 (so far) and currently sit 15th*. Our xG puts us 7th this year and we're in 15th, and last year it put us 19th and we were 17th.

On the defensive side, we were 7th worst last season, again better than the expected 4th worst. This season we are 12th worst, in line with expectations.

What does that tell us - either about how our attack and defence performed better last year compared to expectations than they have this year... or that xG is complete nonsense.

*Newcastle also have 35 goals, but are above us when I sort the table on ESPN, I suspect on basis of goals conceded - they're one better than us. Even with us being 14th, that is still dramatically lower than xG's predicted 7th place.

 

[Finchley Seagull]

I think we've made some decent signings but we've also made some bloody awful signings, which is probably why we dont hear quite so much about our "cluster lists" and incredible recruitment analysis any more. Locadia, Ali J, Webster, Andone, Bernardo, Bissouma is the best part of £85m. While Webster has done ok at times, and Bissouma is starting to establish himself a bit more, that's a lot of cash with not that much to show for it.

Agree re Locadia and Ali J. We will probably end up getting our money back when we sell Andone and, even if we don't, you could argue his winning goals against Huddersfield last season were worth the money we spent alone (as they helped to keep us up).

I disagree with the rest. Webster is improving and, barring a spell around Christmas, has generally done well. We would struggle to play Potter's style without him in my view. Bissouma has been excellent either side of lockdown and is starting to show he will be good value for money (especially as he is so young). Bernardo has looked good to me when he is played and you can see why we signed him. I am still surprised he is not a first team regular.

And, on the other side of your point re recruitment, I would say that Ryan, Burn, Propper, Gross, Mooy and Maupay have already shown themselves to be good value since we have come up. Trossard has done enough to justify his price tag too with plenty to add and Izquierdo would have done if he'd not had injury problems.

On top of that, much of the current recruitment team were behind turning a struggling Championship team into a promoted one in two seasons. Players like Duffy (whose value has significantly increased in his time at the club) and Murray (who has played a huge part in our two full seasons in the Premier League and in promotion). But also a lot of players who played a huge part in promotion, even if they weren't quite good enough to become a regular in the Premier League

 

[Binney on acid]

Yes. Next question please.

 

[Finchley Seagull]

I know this isn't directed at me, but I think of all the stats in the world of football xG is the one that irritates me the most.

If you look at actual goals, rather than 'what could have been' we scored 35 last season putting us 17th. Improving on xG by two places. This season we have 35 (so far) and currently sit 15th*. If our xG puts us 7th this year and we're in 15th, and last year it put us 19th and we were 17th.

On the defensive side, we were 7th worst last season, again better than the expected 4th worst. This season we are 12th worst, in line with expectations.

What does that tell us - either about how our attack and defence performed better last year compared to expectations than they have this year... or that xG is complete nonsense.

*Newcastle also have 35 goals, but are above us when I sort the table on ESPN, I suspect on basis of goals conceded - they're one better than us. Even with us being 14th, that is still dramatically lower than xG's predicted 7th place.

I agree to a point. xG is a bit pointless.

However, maybe what it does reflect is we were a bit fortunate to win some games last season (the three consecutive 1-0 wins in October stand out as games where we didn't deserve to win on balance of play especially against Wolves). On the other hand, earlier this season we dominated quite a few games and drew/lost when we should have won.

This is largely irrelevant but, what it does suggest to me is we're nearer to competing higher up the table. If we can take our chances and go back to playing the way we did earlier in the season, then we might not have as stressful season next season. Obviously that is a big if as we need to sign one or two quality attacking players and we know how difficult they are to get as every team wants them

 

[Acker79]

I agree to a point. xG is a bit pointless.

That's where I lean to. Well, I I would be more emphatic than 'a bit pointless'

However, maybe what it does reflect is we were a bit fortunate to win some games last season (the three consecutive 1-0 wins in October stand out as games where we didn't deserve to win on balance of play especially against Wolves). On the other hand, earlier this season we dominated quite a few games and drew/lost when we should have won.

This is largely irrelevant but, what it does suggest to me is we're nearer to competing higher up the table. If we can take our chances and go back to playing the way we did earlier in the season, then we might not have as stressful season next season. Obviously that is a big if as we need to sign one or two quality attacking players and we know how difficult they are to get as every team wants them

Conversely, 'winning when not playing well is the sign of a good team!' and such cliches. We not only took the chances expected, we were good enough to take more difficult chances, this season, we haven't had the quality to take the chances we should have. See? xG is a godawful stat that does nothing to prove or support anything. It needs banishing.

Ahem. Sorry, I'll go away now.

 

[Finchley Seagull]

Conversely, 'winning when not playing well is the sign of a good team!' and such cliches. We not only took the chances expected, we were good enough to take more difficult chances, this season, we haven't had the quality to take the chances we should have. See? xG is a godawful stat that does nothing to prove or support anything. It needs banishing.

It's not normally said about teams at the bottom though. That's usually reserved for the top teams. All I'm saying is there is probably less wrong with a team who are on top of games but can't take their chances compared to one who is very defensive and holding on most of the game. However, I agree it doesn't help much if you don't get the results