Was Enoch Powell correct?

[Lord Bracknell]

This is just as silly. I did then go on to explain that I meant indigenous folk. Presumably you saw that but decided to pick on this, very conveniently. Your final sentence is irrelevant - at no time did I, or indeed anyone on this thread, mention anything to the contrary. The point was that with tit for tat atrocities, attitudes can polarise.

I'm afraid that no amount of "explanation" to the effect that "indigenous folk" equates with "christians" and stands in opposition to "muslims" will disguise the inherent racism in this sort of thinking. There are millions of white British people who are not Christians. There are millions of black British people who are Christians. And there are millions of British people who are neither white nor Christian nor Muslim.

Anticipating a future conflict between Muslims and what you call "indigenous folk" seems to me to be inviting people to take sides and is incredibly dangerous if it has the effect of causing British Muslims to see themselves as threatened. The conflict we are seeing is with IS, a fundamentalist, sectarian Sunni organisation functioning in Syria and surrounding countries. IS won't be defeated if western hostility to Islam in general drives more young men into the arms of these evil perpetrators of mass murder.

Shouting "Islam is the threat" from the rooftops has that effect.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'm afraid that no amount of "explanation" to the effect that "indigenous folk" equates with "christians" and stands in opposition to "muslims" will disguise the inherent racism in this sort of thinking. There are millions of white British people who are not Christians. There are millions of black British people who are Christians. And there are millions of British people who are neither white nor Christian nor Muslim.

Anticipating a future conflict between Muslims and what you call "indigenous folk" seems to me to be inviting people to take sides and is incredibly dangerous if it has the effect of causing British Muslims to see themselves as threatened. The conflict we are seeing is with IS, a fundamentalist, sectarian Sunni organisation functioning in Syria and surrounding countries. IS won't be defeated if western hostility to Islam in general drives more young men into the arms of these evil perpetrators of mass murder.

Shouting "Islam is the threat" from the rooftops has that effect.

Well put.

 

[BigGully]

I'm afraid that no amount of "explanation" to the effect that "indigenous folk" equates with "christians" and stands in opposition to "muslims" will disguise the inherent racism in this sort of thinking. There are millions of white British people who are not Christians. There are millions of black British people who are Christians. And there are millions of British people who are neither white nor Christian nor Muslim.

Anticipating a future conflict between Muslims and what you call "indigenous folk" seems to me to be inviting people to take sides and is incredibly dangerous if it has the effect of causing British Muslims to see themselves as threatened. The conflict we are seeing is with IS, a fundamentalist, sectarian Sunni organisation functioning in Syria and surrounding countries. IS won't be defeated if western hostility to Islam in general drives more young men into the arms of these evil perpetrators of mass murder.

Shouting "Islam is the threat" from the rooftops has that effect.

If you were talking about public transport or buses I might give your thoughts some weight, but as you know you have a blindspot on anything Islam, you come across to me as an apologist, I wont trawl back through your historic resounding support of the Deghayes family, a family that have fought and died in Syria for ISIS, yes that jihadist family that you tried to encourage others to believe in, support and offer their support.

No thanks .........

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I'm not sure how me using the phrase "evil perpetrators of mass murder" fits with Big Gully's assertion that I am "an apologist" . But I do welcome his promise not to trawl back and unearth the stuff I wrote in support of a campaign that was backed not only by the Argus and other UK media, but by the British government at the time.

 

[BigGully]

I'm not sure how me using the phrase "evil perpetrators of mass murder" fits with Big Gully's assertion that I am "an apologist" . But I do welcome his promise not to trawl back and unearth the stuff I wrote in support of a campaign that was backed not only by the Argus and other UK media, but by the British government at the time.

We both debated it at the time, you and a few others were tripping over yourselves to support these unlikely innocents.

Of all the things that you might have lent your support for you chose them, I can recall now when one was picked up in Taliban country, 'just picking nuts' you claimed 'just picking nuts'.

 

[NooBHA]

Except Chamberlain's actions also fits into your PC dialogue. How many lives did that cost?

That's still not a reason to place organisations similar to Amnesty International in the garbage like the woman in that video suggests. That was my gripe. Chaimberlain scenario is something different altogether because the damage had been done a number of years prior

 

[Hastings gull]

I'm afraid that no amount of "explanation" to the effect that "indigenous folk" equates with "christians" and stands in opposition to "muslims" will disguise the inherent racism in this sort of thinking. There are millions of white British people who are not Christians. There are millions of black British people who are Christians. And there are millions of British people who are neither white nor Christian nor Muslim.

Anticipating a future conflict between Muslims and what you call "indigenous folk" seems to me to be inviting people to take sides and is incredibly dangerous if it has the effect of causing British Muslims to see themselves as threatened. The conflict we are seeing is with IS, a fundamentalist, sectarian Sunni organisation functioning in Syria and surrounding countries. IS won't be defeated if western hostility to Islam in general drives more young men into the arms of these evil perpetrators of mass murder.

Shouting "Islam is the threat" from the rooftops has that effect.

What utter nonsense. There is no racism at all, just what you want to believe. The danger comes from naïve folk like you who see wacism where it does not exist. I fear for the future because of what we see unfolding before our eyes -that is, if you are actually looking. To say that if you fear for the future, equates to "shouting from the rooftops" or inviting people to take sides is just plain stupidity.Yes, the conflict is with IS, but do you really think that we will be unaffected. Tell that to the Parisians.
Your last sentence is quite irrelevant - I have at no time claimed that westerners should be hostile to Islam in general, and have always stated that the fanatics and their sympathisers and supporters are a small but loud and dangerous minority.

 

[Saladpack Seagull]

Simple answer - an emphatic NO. He wasn't right. His speech was about a different people in a different time and by and large the people he was referring to have assimilated into British life extraordinarily well and have enriched this country and are as proud to be British as I am.

Exactly this. EP's speech has to be seen in it's historical context and cannot be used today to describe a situation which nobody could have predicted all those years ago. I will admit (and not everyone will) that as a youth at the time my mates and I hung around the fringes of Far Right politics, but saw this as the norm and the patriotic "British" thing to do. Today I know we were wrong, and being part of that scene was a complete waste of time and energy. The world has moved on and now I'm glad to have friends from diverse backgrounds, including the ethnic minority and gay communities which were so vilified in the Seventies. They've made me a better and more complete human being. Let's leave that time far behind.......

 

[TomandJerry]

Well, blood is being spilt over the streets of Germany and France on almost a daily basis now? Merkel''s open door policy has clear back fired with millions pouring in.

 

[Bakero]

Well, blood is being spilt over the streets of Germany and France on almost a daily basis now? Merkel''s open door policy has clear back fired with millions pouring in.

Enoch Powell did not predict the rise of Isis. Wasn't this dealt with last year?

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Yes, but you knew what was meant, didn't you? I have no idea what you are talking about with your statement?

Bloody hell, talk about shoot yourself in the foot you fool.
You clearly have no idea about anything in this and many other threads.
Give up, LB is running rings around you and most of us are laughing at you and your small band of ignorant racists.

 

[Giraffe]

Yes he was. But no one will ever say so because they are too frightened.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I'm afraid that no amount of "explanation" to the effect that "indigenous folk" equates with "christians" and stands in opposition to "muslims" will disguise the inherent racism in this sort of thinking. There are millions of white British people who are not Christians. There are millions of black British people who are Christians. And there are millions of British people who are neither white nor Christian nor Muslim.

Anticipating a future conflict between Muslims and what you call "indigenous folk" seems to me to be inviting people to take sides and is incredibly dangerous if it has the effect of causing British Muslims to see themselves as threatened. The conflict we are seeing is with IS, a fundamentalist, sectarian Sunni organisation functioning in Syria and surrounding countries. IS won't be defeated if western hostility to Islam in general drives more young men into the arms of these evil perpetrators of mass murder.

Shouting "Islam is the threat" from the rooftops has that effect.

IS is being driven back and it's being done through economics. The Iraq army are defeating them on the ground, but also cutting off their supply lines of oil.

This is one of the reasons they are trying to make an impact in Europe to persuade their followers that they are still relevant.

 

[mona]

No I don't know what was meant. It was you who brought "Christians" into this debate.

I'm beginning to think you mean "white people". Or am I wrong?

As for avoiding future conflict, the first step I would take would be to do something about the growth of racism.

I don't think black Christians in Nigeria have fared too well from the terrorism of Boko Haram islamists.

 

[Bold Seagull]

The speech or being allegedly part of the Westminster paedophile ring, or the alleged satanic worship?

 

[Soulman]

I don't think black Christians in Nigeria have fared too well from the terrorism of Boko Haram islamists.

Correct, i was working with a couple of black taper and joiners from Nigeria, both Christian, both told of the dangers, and both glad to get out of the country.

 

[sjamesb3466]

I think he was wrong in a number of aspects. His mention of the old woman that refused to rent rooms to black people is simply racism. To then justify her racism by saying she was later verbally abused is the result of her actions, not the cause. I am not saying that the actions of any minorities verbally abusing/vandalising property is an acceptable response however without laws to protect against discrimination people will take matters into their own hands, rightly or wrongly.

I think the issue on integration is an interesting one and very much a mixed bag. I live in Leicester, one of the most culturally diverse cities in the country and I would say integration is both a success and failure. A success I that on a personal level, especially with the younger generations growing up in the UK people are used to mixing with all races and live and work alongside one another pretty well. The failure often comes from the housing policies 30 years or so ago that grouped races together which has caused there to be predominantly white, Asian and black areas of the city. This creates schools where in certain areas races are not mixed and therefore not integrating as well as they could /should. This however is replicated across the country and is really a failure of housing policy more than anything else.

The point made about Sikhs not being part of Britain has been proven to be crap in my opinion. Sikhs from my experience are a real success story for integration and offer their charity to all people without question. At Christmas many Sikhs I Leicester set up food stalls to feed the poor and the homeless free of charge and if anyone (even if not poor of homeless) asked for some food then it is given.

Islam is clearly the problem that most people have with immigration and it is true that the Islamic community have a real problem with often young men and women feeling so out of touch/place in western society that they want to commit horrific acts for whatever reason. This issue however does not mean that we should be encouraging deporting all Muslims. Many Muslims that I have worked with have been exactly the same as everyone else, joining in, working together and even joining us at the pub for pay day drinks (sticking to the soft drinks as per their religion). Some Muslims I have worked with have been more reserved and tended to associate with other Muslims. Both are fine with me as nobody is hurting each other and is a pretty good representation of Britain in general.

So in short, all of my waffle comes down to a few things. Powell was wrong in my opinion in saying that anti discrimination laws were wrong, wrong in saying our streets would turn into killing fields and wrong in saying all immigrants would not integrate. Some have, some haven't. Some give great contributions to Britain and our society, some are *****. So just like white British people really...

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Says some one from Leicester
regards
DR

 

[Soulman]

The point made about Sikhs not being part of Britain has been proven to be crap in my opinion. Sikhs from my experience are a real success story for integration and offer their charity to all people without question. At Christmas many Sikhs I Leicester set up food stalls to feed the poor and the homeless free of charge and if anyone (even if not poor of homeless) asked for some food then it is given.

Islam is clearly the problem that most people have with immigration and it is true that the Islamic community have a real problem with often young men and women feeling so out of touch/place in western society that they want to commit horrific acts for whatever reason.
.

Here is the nub of it. The Sikhs have integrated, they respect this country, they fought tooth and nail for this country in the wars, they celebrate their religion peacefully and do not expect special treatment and are no trouble, quite the opposite.
Islam is a different kettle of fish, starting with integration.

 

[Boy Blue]

He was bang on the money and this murdering rage by immigrants is the start. All this bolloxs lighting candles and having a sing song won't scare these migrants that are coming our way.