[Politics] Was Ange in the loop?

[wellquickwoody]

Hope to see Peter Kyle get an even higher profile role – though he seems delighted with his current brief. Future leader?

I first wondered that after meeting with him about 10 years ago. Charismatic, knowledgeable and not too far to the left, future PM perhaps?

 

[lawros left foot]

Yeah. He only lied to the electorate about WMD so he could justify taking us into an illegal war against Iraq. That has ended well hasn't it?

Rose tinted specs and all that.

[MENTION=27918]@Live by the sea is a rabid lefty hating Tory, so his support of Blair is quite understandable.

 

[Brok]

Oh good. Another shit thread...

 

[Is it PotG?]

Oh good. Another shit thread...

 

[rogersix]

The Tories are bad, but sadly Labour are even worse. There hasn't been a proper Labour party since Blair left. With the Tory party leaning more left, maybe Labour need to come back into the centre. Would make them far more electable. Getting rid of Raynor would be a great place to start.

wishful thinking? it must be impossible, shirley!

 

[Pavilionaire]

I like what Starmer has done in his reshuffle, some of his best people in the top positions now and some good match-ups there, and they won't be afraid to take down their opposite number.

Truss vs Lammy
Patel vs Cooper
Javed vs Streeting
Zahawi vs Phillipson

 

[clapham_gull]

1. I'd say the Tories are certainly an embarrassment and a disgrace but to accept "the devil you know" whilst maintaining a position that Labour - who have plenty of able Shadow Cabinet politicians and an eloquent leader - are "even worse" is a weak position to take. I fancy that Starmer / Reeves / Thomas-Symonds / Nandy / Philipson / Lammy / Ashworth would do a lot better job than Johnson / Patel / Rishi / Truss / Javed / Raab and Gove.

2. Many would argue that Labour wasn't a proper Labour party under Blair. He certainly departed from core Labour values during his tenure, courted The Sun and applied John Major's fledgling PFI policy to the max.

3. It was a mistake to make Rayner Deputy Leader, the sort of mistake Labour make when they shoot themselves in the foot. They wanted a plain-speaking Northern woman to counter-balance Starmer's male metropolitan elite aire. Unfortunately, when a pitbull is let off the leash the results can be catastrophic. Lisa Nandy would have been a shrewder choice. I think Lammy could do the job, and the one who really impresses me is Wes Streeting.

Clearly both parties have had a problem with perceived "purity" within the ranks. The Conservatives purging some very sensible pro-remain MPs and the Labour party doing the same to anyone perceived too "centrist".

A lot of that down to "external advice" that has informed both the centre ground is dead and lurching to the extremes may possibly just get you over the line. Both parties seemingly missing some visionary young MPs.

That hypothesis completely negates the fact that the centre ground "moves". Not from "left to right", but ideas that the majority of the population agree with. Mask wearing and vaccination are clearly "centre ground", wasting money on a high speed rail line clearly not. Re-nationalisation of the water companies probably centre ground too and I wouldn't have put money on that.

On balance (just) the Labour party may just have the ability to reclaim that centre ground. But they are equally capable of screwing it up.

I also think there is possibility we will see a new Conservative party leader before the next election unless Johnson sorts his act out.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Clearly both parties have had a problem with perceived "purity" within the ranks. The Conservatives purging some very sensible pro-remain MPs and the Labour party doing the same to anyone perceived too "centrist".

A lot of that down to "external advice" that has informed both the centre ground is dead and lurching to the extremes may possibly just get you over the line. Both parties seemingly missing some visionary young MPs.

That hypothesis completely negates the fact that the centre ground "moves". Not from "left to right", but ideas that the majority of the population agree with. Mask wearing and vaccination are clearly "centre ground", wasting money on a high speed rail line clearly not. Re-nationalisation of the water companies probably centre ground too and I wouldn't have put money on that.

On balance (just) the Labour party may just have the ability to reclaim that centre ground. But they are equally capable of screwing it up.

I also think there is possibility we will see a new Conservative party leader before the next election unless Johnson sorts his act out.

There has been talks of letters to the 1922 committee and a WhatsApp group entitled Liz for Leader!

 

[Hugo Rune]

I also think there is possibility we will see a new Conservative party leader before the next election unless Johnson sorts his act out.

I doubt it. When it’s his own political career at stake, he is utterly ruthless. Yes, he generally makes awful judgement calls but if there is any hint of a coup, the perpetrators will get their political throats cut quicker than you can say “Boris is a nasty c***”.

Back to Labour, looks like they are getting their act together: “The reshuffle was criticised by former shadow chancellor John McDonnell, a key ally of former leader Jeremy Corbyn.
He tweeted: "Reviving the careers of former Blairite ministers and simply reappointing existing shadow cabinet ministers to new posts does give the impression of Christmas Past, not Christmas Future."

 

[clapham_gull]

I doubt it. When it’s his own political career at stake, he is utterly ruthless. Yes, he generally makes awful judgement calls but if there is any hint of a coup, the perpetrators will get their political throats cut quicker than you can say “Boris is a nasty c***”.

That might well be the case for Johnson, but the Conservative party are the most successful political party. They are so by subtly reinventing themselves and ditching or damaging their leaders when they want.

They are also quite happy being strategically out of power whilst they do so.

 

[drew]

On the radio it was suggested it wasn't a case of Starmer not trusting Rayner but that Starmer's team doesn't trust Rayner's team. The two individuals have a reasonable working relationship.

 

[drew]

Yeah. He only lied to the electorate about WMD so he could justify taking us into an illegal war against Iraq. That has ended well hasn't it?

Rose tinted specs and all that.

And under Thatcher we went to war with Argentina because we took our eye of the ball and she lied about the Belgrano!!


As for Blair, he didn't make up the 45 minute claim, it was an intelligence briefing the source of which was later proved to be bogus. He also didn't make up the WMD threat, that was also based on the intelligence at the time.

Granted, there was a helluva lot wrong with the Iraq war most obviously the exit strategy. However, whatever tory PM in power at the time would have done exactly the same.

The left can't stand Blair because he was a realist. He is the only Labour leader to have won an election since Wilson in 74, that's not a great record in what is effectively a two horse race.

 

[stewart12]

The left can't stand Blair because he was a realist. He is the only Labour leader to have won an election since Wilson in 74, that's not a great record in what is effectively a two horse race.

Blair is easily the best PM in my lifetime. Comfortable on the world stage, managed to introduce TONNES of progressive social change at home and popular with business leaders.

As is typical with the left, his biggest opposition was from within and if you think of his two most controversial decisions- Iraq war and Tuition fees, the most vocal opposition to both of those was from the left

As you say he was a realist, he knew that far left policies aren't popular enough with the electorate to win elections. But if you can find that middle ground with a nice left wing "style" agenda then the public might buy it because actually I think that's where most British people are at. We want good schools, good healthcare, good social care etc etc but at the same time aren't keen on perceived high government spending (apparently). Blair knew that, Corbyn absolutely did not...Starmer probably does and is undoubtedly competent but doesn't have the charisma of Blair

 

[schmunk]

Blair is easily the best PM in my lifetime. Comfortable on the world stage, managed to introduce TONNES of progressive social change at home and popular with business leaders.

As is typical with the left, his biggest opposition was from within and if you think of his two most controversial decisions- Iraq war and Tuition fees, the most vocal opposition to both of those was from the left

As you say he was a realist, he knew that far left policies aren't popular enough with the electorate to win elections. But if you can find that middle ground with a nice left wing "style" agenda then the public might buy it because actually I think that's where most British people are at. We want good schools, good healthcare, good social care etc etc but at the same time aren't keen on perceived high government spending (apparently). Blair knew that, Corbyn absolutely did not...Starmer probably does and is undoubtedly competent but doesn't have the charisma of Blair

Absolutely, and just makes you think what might have been with the Miliband 'Sliding Doors' moment...

 

[Pavilionaire]

IBack to Labour, looks like they are getting their act together: “The reshuffle was criticised by former shadow chancellor John McDonnell, a key ally of former leader Jeremy Corbyn.
He tweeted: "Reviving the careers of former Blairite ministers and simply reappointing existing shadow cabinet ministers to new posts does give the impression of Christmas Past, not Christmas Future."

I don't see how promoting Wes Streeting to Health Minister is rearranging deckchairs. This is a progressive move, pushing one of their leading lights into arguably the most visible Cabinet position of the lot.

Yvette Cooper has got better with age and has experience of government to draw on too.

Overall, Labour appear to have got their house in order, sorted anti-Semitism, distanced themselves from the Corbynistas. They have to remain united though. I saw Angela Rayner on Kay Burley's breakfast show and thought she did alright - I think she's been brought into line although her position needs to remain under review.

2022 needs to be the year Labour go on the attack, firstly by winning back red wall hearts and minds but also flipping marginal seats in the south. I think to do that they will have to form political alliances with the Lib Dems and Greens so votes aren't split - that has to stop if they are to have any chance of forming a government.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

The Tories are bad, but sadly Labour are even worse. There hasn't been a proper Labour party since Blair left. With the Tory party leaning more left, maybe Labour need to come back into the centre. Would make them far more electable. Getting rid of Raynor would be a great place to start.

Sorry, what!?

Can you please explain for me how the party led by an elitist, racist leader, who have stoked the flames of nationalism and xenophobia at every possible juncture, run down public services across the board, used free-market 'policies' to enrich their associates, whilst progressing the clandestine sell-off of the health service, has been 'leaning to the LEFT'?

Mental.

 

[grubbyhands]

Error!

 

[rogersix]

The Tories are bad, but sadly Labour are even worse. There hasn't been a proper Labour party since Blair left. With the Tory party leaning more left, maybe Labour need to come back into the centre. Would make them far more electable. Getting rid of Raynor would be a great place to start.

Sorry, what!?

Can you please explain for me how the party led by an elitist, racist leader, who have stoked the flames of nationalism and xenophobia at every possible juncture, run down public services across the board, used free-market 'policies' to enrich their associates, whilst progressing the clandestine sell-off of the health service, has been 'leaning to the LEFT'?

Mental.

this question ought to be addressed, if only for the comedy value

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

https://www.standard.co.uk/video/ne...ic-hot-at-labour-conference-karaoke-vaa041f19

complete mare

regards
DF