[Technology] Victorian train companies

[ditchy]

Its always the way with monopolies. Private monopolies are worse than state because they fake a competitive landscape, using a fake approach to deal with fake issues. Multiple ticket types are there to encourage more users at off peak times, for instance. So you get into rediculous wrangles about when the lower fairs start (is it on the basis of whether the train arrives in London before 10, or is it based on when the train leaves Faversham?). Timetables are revised every few years to squeeze a bit more money out of the system by reducing the number of trains and staff.

And its getting shitter and shitter. If I need to be in my office or a lecture theatre by 9.00 I now have to get up at 5.00 in order to get the 6.18, which arrives in Victoria at 7.30. No later train gets me to Victoria in time to get to work. The 7.13 arrives at 8.29, but is regularly late, and I can't breeze into a lecture theatre with 200 students waiting, ten minutes late. Also this journey is timetabled to take an hour and 26 minutes. When I first moved to Faversham in 1989, there were two 'fast' trains an hour, each with a brake van where I could stow my mountain bike. The journey was timetabled to take an hour and five minutes, and typically was no more than 5 minutes late. I remember once oversleeping and still getting a train at 7.35 and being in the lecture theatre bang on 9.00. Why has my journey been timetabled to take 20 minutes longer now than when we had slam door trains? Easy answer - to make it harder for trains to be officially late (triggering refunds).

Add to that the 'no working toilet' issue, the freeloaders in first class, .... such joy to go to work....

Something to do with more trains running on an overcrowded network . But i am at pains to see where there are more trains !

 

[Gwylan]

funny thing about ticket prices is they are heavily regulated and government drive the rail companies to offer cheaper fares to shift work patterns. however they dont offer any incentives to businesses to follw suit, so its rather pointless.

But they're not offering cheaper fares so there's no incentive to shift work patterns. In fact, rail companies are doing the opposite with some operators shifting the times when off-peak tickets come into effect (at 9.30, instead of 9.00 - amazed that SASTA hasn't done this).

As an example, when I worked in London, I negotiated it so that I worked from home two days a week to spend more time with my kids. It was great from that point of view but there was no financial advantage in my doing this as three returns to London were more than my weekly season ticket. If rail companies offered three-day season tickets, then more firms could do things like this and ease over-crowding.

As another example, my mother talks of the time when you could get a 'workman's ticket' where fares were cheaper first thing in the morning. Firms could offer employees a flexible starting time, again, reducing over-crowding, but there's no incentive for a worker to get into the office earlier as leaving at 5.30 and 8.30 cost exactly the same.

Or to take another example, In France, I could buy a ticket that covers the whole of the Ile-de-France region - buses, trains and metro. While London has the Oyster card, it's not valid in Sussex or Kent, so there's no integration in regional travel.

It's diverging a bit from the original theme but the lack of flexible ticketing like this is another example of railways failing to catch up with the 21st century. And I'm not sure why you think that rail companies are doing anything to help the poor sods trying to get to work.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

you mileage obviously varies, time table changes this year have made my commute better and the times are slightly shorter. have they put in more stops on your route? "fast" train suggests it didnt stop much. its a bit odd to accuse them of changes to reduce services when its documented the overall number of services have increased in recent years. they have sacrificed the west and east coast services for more Brighton to London services, and we are expected to change so we have lost some convenience.

funny thing about ticket prices is they are heavily regulated and government drive the rail companies to offer cheaper fares to shift work patterns. however they dont offer any incentives to businesses to follw suit, so its rather pointless.

One big change was the trains brought in when Major privatised were too tall for several tunnels, so they were introduced late and there have been endless engineering works at weekends since (over the last 20 years). The new trains break down a lot. We have one line up and down most of the way so a breakdown buggers up trains all day. We have a dispute between cleaners and the company that has cause the lack of toilets. We have congestion at Victoria and London Bridge. But as stated, the timetabled journey has been lengthened (I have been told bey people who work for the company) this was to reduce 'lateness' (a fiddle). North Kent line has always been shit, but after privatisation the wheels (lmost literally) came off.

What's your commute? I do Fav to mostly Victoria and London Bridge but also 'hi speed' to St Pancreas. Trains are prettier and air conditioned, but seats are less comfortable (except in first class), shorter, and less frequent (albeit there are additional but even slower stoppers but I don't enjoy a 1 h 40 min commute). I'm sure the company can say they supply more carriages per minute or something, but this does not add up to more fast trains to London. It is equivalent to tikka takka football - plenty of possession (movement of trains back and forth) but very little delivery (whizzy trains arriving in a timely fashion).

All the best.

 

[Gwylan]

I do Fav to ... to St Pancreas.

Is that where you change for the ferry to the Islets of Langerhans?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Is that where you change for the ferry to the Islets of Langerhans?

Gluclose, but no cigar.

 

[GT49er]

Something to do with more trains running on an overcrowded network . But i am at pains to see where there are more trains !

It's not so much more trains as less network - and even more damaging, less flexible network. In many places four tracks have been reduced to two, or double track reduced to single line , all in the name of saving on maintenance. Not to mention ripping up alternative routes........cough, cough....... Lewes to Uckfield.

Plus there is no longer the flexibility to allow for broken down trains to be moved out of the way, faster trains to overtake slower ones etc. For instance, on Coastway west I don't think there's a single set of points anywhere between Hove and Worthing. Going east I suspect the same applies from just outside Lewes to Hampden Park; one train breaks down, the line closes. Maintenance needed? The line closes. Both ways.

 

[Gwylan]

For instance, on Coastway west I don't think there's a single set of points anywhere between Hove and Worthing.

As we can see this weekend: engineering work at Ford means the whole Coastway West line closes

 

[GT49er]

As we can see this weekend: engineering work at Ford means the whole Coastway West line closes

Quod erat demonstrandum.

 

[Madafwo]

If someone has to decide whether to bring a train into platform 1, 2 or 3 each and every time there is a train and when there is a train, there may or may not be another train 1 minute before or 1 minute after, points need to be changed, passengers directed and re-directed from clogged concourses, then of course, mistakes happen, problems happen, delays happen.

That's all planned months in advance, the same service should depart from the same platform every day which is why you see commuters standing on an empty platform without a service advertised in the exact spot where the doors should be. You can see the platforms services should be in during the peak from Brighton for next week already here.

Take Brighton during the peak for instance, 1 line in and 1 line out for Mainline services, it doesn't take a lot for it to go completely to pot and have a service booked for Platform 3 to end up on 6 or 7, East Croydon is particularly terrible for it as well.

 

[jackalbion]

That's all planned months in advance, the same service should depart from the same platform every day which is why you see commuters standing on an empty platform without a service advertised in the exact spot where the doors should be. You can see the platforms services should be in during the peak from Brighton for next week already here.

Take Brighton during the peak for instance, 1 line in and 1 line out for Mainline services, it doesn't take a lot for it to go completely to pot and have a service booked for Platform 3 to end up on 6 or 7, East Croydon is particularly terrible for it as well.

The only large station I can think that isn’t like this is King’s Cross which is signalled on the day, so 9 times out of 10 your train won’t be on the same platform twice in a row.

 

[Stat Brother]

As good a place as any, and I'm easily impressed:-

[tweet]1038001185670737920[/tweet]

 

[Cian]

So let me get this right.........

You went to Brighton Station, run by Southern Railway?
To buy a ticket, for a train, not operated by Southern Railway,
Departing from a station run by LNER?

So if I want a Big Mac, for my son, from Macdonalds in Newcastle,
I can go to Burger King in Brighton to pay for it AND expect Burger King to sort it for me?

Words fail me!


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Were Burger King and McDonalds both the same company and are still controlled by one regulator?


The UK has the exemplar in privatising operation of public transport services - the London Buses system. Multiple operators; a single point of contact and method of payment for the user and if an operator hits the wall its likely the user will never know. And it has the absolute worst system which is the TOC system for railways. How one setup can create two systems that different is quite amazing.

I worked for a state owned public transport system in dire need of a boot up the arse to fix some awful setups in place, but everything worked better than the TOC system. I can't even begin to imagine what the question thought it was the answer for was.

 

[Fran112]

WERE Burger King and McDonalds both the same company and are still controlled by one regulator?


The UK has the exemplar in privatising operation of public transport services - the London Buses system. Multiple operators; a single point of contact and method of payment for the user and if an operator hits the wall its likely the user will never know. And it has the absolute worst system which is the TOC system for railways. How one setup can create two systems that different is quite amazing.

I worked for a state owned public transport system in dire need of a boot up the arse to fix some awful setups in place, but everything worked better than the TOC system. I can't even begin to imagine what the question thought it was the answer for was.

THe 1st word is the most impossible thing you said!
WERE.
NO THEY WERE NOT.
But our rail system is NOT now.
When will people accept THINGS CHANGE?
You all want change for the better, we all do, but hey ho it doesn’t all work that way.
Had the OP used the technology you all harp on about this is how it would have played out.
1. Download LNER app.
2. Register.
3. Buy ticket.
4. Send log-on details to Daughter.
5. Daughter downloads App.
6. Daughter logs on using your details (you sent her in 4 above).
7. Boom, there’s there ticket. About 3 mins I’m guessing?

Not rocket science, not a young persons thing (I’m 60).
You want the technology, it’s there, then ffs use it!



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[Cian]

You're accepting a significant regression in provision of service for zero gain elsewhere.

Ticketing should entirely be a DOT function and have nothing to do with the TOCs.

 

[Fran112]

You're accepting a significant regression in provision of service for zero gain elsewhere.

Ticketing should entirely be a DOT function and have nothing to do with the TOCs.

In your opinion



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[Shropshire Seagull]

In the effort to resolve the root cause, I'd quite like to understand how said daughter ended up in Northants with no money or cards - if this can be resolved, a repeat event might be less likely.

Not seen it discussed yet, but if she'd got on a train without a ticket, would she [given the circumstances we've not yet heard] be locked up and receive a criminal record & heavy fine, or treated as a damsel in distress?

 

[Gwylan]

In the effort to resolve the root cause, I'd quite like to understand how said daughter ended up in Northants with no money or cards - if this can be resolved, a repeat event might be less likely.

Not seen it discussed yet, but if she'd got on a train without a ticket, would she [given the circumstances we've not yet heard] be locked up and receive a criminal record & heavy fine, or treated as a damsel in distress?

She got a lift up and could have got a lift back a few days later but needed to be back in Brighton before then (teenagers have no concept of practicalities). I wouldn't have trusted the rail operators to treat her as a damsel in distress, they'd probably have thrown her off at the next station.

And I couldn't have bought her a mobile ticket. As I explained earlier, they're not transferable and can only be used on the mobile purchased on. But, even if I could have, she only had about 45 minutes charge on her phone and it would have run out before London (as I said, teenagers have no concept of practicalities )

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Sounds like one of their muffled train announcements