albion534
Well-known member
ill race a BMW in my ford focus and see who wins, vettel is a spoilt brat who cries whenever he doesnt get his way
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Vettel the best ever?
- Thread starter matthew
- Start date
stripeyshark
All-Time Best Defence
- Dec 20, 2011
- 2,294
jakarta
Well-known member
Different drivers, different eras, one thing that has always happened is that a driver dominates when his car is a leap ahead of the others e.g. Clark with the Lotus 49. It has got progressively worse, was there ever such a poor world champion as Damon Hill?
I personally lost my interest in F1 about 20 years ago when the technology trumped the drivers and the cars started to be raced from the pits. My favourite era was mid 60's to mid 70's - real drivers and real cars.
I personally lost my interest in F1 about 20 years ago when the technology trumped the drivers and the cars started to be raced from the pits. My favourite era was mid 60's to mid 70's - real drivers and real cars.
Icy Gull
Back on the rollercoaster
- Jul 5, 2003
- 72,015
Are Red Bull and Vettel the best on the grid at the moment? Yes of course they are. Can you really compare Hamilton in his first season and the cock ups the McClaren team made when talking about the best driver ever? I don't think so. Not sure that the McLaren was even close to being the best car in the way the Red Bull is this season either. An advantage of up to 2 seconds a lap, which Red Bull have had in the second half of the season, is untouchable in F1. Even Max Chilton would look world class in that car.
There were some races earlier this season when the Red Bull was almost equalled by Mercedes ( on slower tracks) and the Lotus. Did Vettel look unbeatable then? Senna always looked the class of the field even if his car was a bit of a dog. Vettel has a long way to go before he can be compared with Senna, imo.
Even Schumacher looked average when he didn't have the best car. In fact he was a fecking liability at Mercedes, shunting people left right and centre. Yet he got called the greatest...when he had the best car.
Pevenseagull
meh
- Jul 20, 2003
- 20,706
Senna
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
Did you miss my line which said 'We'll discover Vettel's true talent in the years to come.' Seems like you've rushed to type a counter argument that I've suggested Vettel is the best? All I've said really is that even with the best car, being consistent and winning consecutive titles is not easy. There have been many superior cars that have failed to win titles, I can think of Eddie Irvine's 1999 Ferrari as one example.
He's potentially got another 10 years coming into his best years in terms of experience etc. His achievements really shouldn't be rubbished though, he's improved year on year, makes very few errors and even in a better car, it's still an amazing run he's having.
ElectricNaz
Well-known member
It's tough between Kimi, Alonso and Vettel.
Hamilton is out because he can't seem to get to grips with these tyres when the other three have done so relatively easily.
Vettel is great yes, but he'll always have a shadow over him because he's never had an equal team mate. He is very quick though, his qualy lap in Austin being a prime example, he was something like .4 secs down on Webber at the end of sector 2 and just pulled half a second out of the bag in S3 to grab pole by a tenth. He's a machine. I don't necessarily like him, but he deserves respect for being a winner. Stuff team orders, I'd have done the same as him if I was fighting for records and titles.
Kimi and Alonso are equal to Seb, they've been very unfortunate to have lesser machinery, but they still outperform the car on numerous occasions. Kimi is the best overtaker on the grid, bar none (even Hamilton), and he's also a proper driver - knows when to overtake, when to take it easy, and stays (largely) out of trouble, barring the race before the US (India?) When he clearly couldn't be arsed to start from the back, can't blame him especially if he hadn't been paid yet. Alonso is probably the best tactical driver out there, probably not the best at any one thing, but 8 or 9/10 across the subjects.
Hamilton is out because he can't seem to get to grips with these tyres when the other three have done so relatively easily.
Vettel is great yes, but he'll always have a shadow over him because he's never had an equal team mate. He is very quick though, his qualy lap in Austin being a prime example, he was something like .4 secs down on Webber at the end of sector 2 and just pulled half a second out of the bag in S3 to grab pole by a tenth. He's a machine. I don't necessarily like him, but he deserves respect for being a winner. Stuff team orders, I'd have done the same as him if I was fighting for records and titles.
Kimi and Alonso are equal to Seb, they've been very unfortunate to have lesser machinery, but they still outperform the car on numerous occasions. Kimi is the best overtaker on the grid, bar none (even Hamilton), and he's also a proper driver - knows when to overtake, when to take it easy, and stays (largely) out of trouble, barring the race before the US (India?) When he clearly couldn't be arsed to start from the back, can't blame him especially if he hadn't been paid yet. Alonso is probably the best tactical driver out there, probably not the best at any one thing, but 8 or 9/10 across the subjects.
Icy Gull
Back on the rollercoaster
- Jul 5, 2003
- 72,015
Harsh, it's the car that can't handle the tyres, Rosberg has the same problem.
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
That is a good point, and it's difficult looking at team mates, Hamilton has only marginally out performed Rosberg this season, with not a lot between the two.
But you look at how Vettel has out performed Webber, and how Alonso has done the same to Massa, perhaps even Kimi and Grosjean till Kimi had enough of driving for free, and you see a clear gulf between drivers with the same equipment.
You can look at this as either Rosberg being a better driver than Webber or Massa in matching Hamilton, or that Hamilton just isn't streaks ahead of everyone like people thought he was going to be following his title win. I don't think Hamilton has shown the consistency or mental strength of either Vettel or Alonso in recent seasons. Alonso for me has been probably a stand out competitor in getting an often inferior car onto the podium.
It wouldn't certainly be a brilliant F1 season if we could just have Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari on pretty much a level footing without any real mechanical advantage next year. It would be the shot in the arm the competition needs. Perhaps the new rules will help, we can only hope so, because it is getting a bit boring.
mejonaNO12 aka riskit
Well-known member
What I'm about to write basically contradicts itself but here it goes:
Vettel has ruined F1 for me. That's all I need to know to realise how brilliant he is.
I now don't watch the races unless I see he is starting below 5th or so. Even then I probably won't watch it once he gets to the front.
It's the same as when Man Utd (under Fergie) were on tv at home to someone mid table or in the champs league. They'd score and I'd turn off. That's because they were SO GOOD that you know it wasn't worth your time hoping it all goes wrong.
Vettel is quality. Yes he has the best car, but so what? He still has to go out there and execute what must be pretty difficult. It must be bloomin odd to be a RACER and never see a car infront of you. That shows an amazing mental ability. The fact someone has found one example of him screwing it up (especially as he was VERY YOUNG) just shows how unusual it is.
Yes he's a bit of a dick but its a winning mentality.
I find it a shame that it's ruined F1 to me....but that still doesn't mean I won't acknowledge an amazing driver.
Vettel has ruined F1 for me. That's all I need to know to realise how brilliant he is.
I now don't watch the races unless I see he is starting below 5th or so. Even then I probably won't watch it once he gets to the front.
It's the same as when Man Utd (under Fergie) were on tv at home to someone mid table or in the champs league. They'd score and I'd turn off. That's because they were SO GOOD that you know it wasn't worth your time hoping it all goes wrong.
Vettel is quality. Yes he has the best car, but so what? He still has to go out there and execute what must be pretty difficult. It must be bloomin odd to be a RACER and never see a car infront of you. That shows an amazing mental ability. The fact someone has found one example of him screwing it up (especially as he was VERY YOUNG) just shows how unusual it is.
Yes he's a bit of a dick but its a winning mentality.
I find it a shame that it's ruined F1 to me....but that still doesn't mean I won't acknowledge an amazing driver.
Gazwag
5 millionth post poster
The fact that he is getting boo at tracks says everything, F1 is dying on its feet, sitting on a bridge over the M25 at rushhour is more exciting nowadays
Shropshire Seagull
Well-known member
How many F1 driver championships have been won in an Adrian Newey designed car in the last 20 years.
That's where the REAL credit should go.
Sure you need some ability to win, even in the best car, but whoever gets the best car in F1 invairably wins.
It could all change next year with the switch from V8 to V6 engines which will be new to all 3 engine providers in F1.
The emphasis on chassis and aerodynamics will briefly revert to power plant - lets hope it makes for more interesting results.
As others have said, F1 is dull when one person dominates.
That's where the REAL credit should go.
Sure you need some ability to win, even in the best car, but whoever gets the best car in F1 invairably wins.
It could all change next year with the switch from V8 to V6 engines which will be new to all 3 engine providers in F1.
The emphasis on chassis and aerodynamics will briefly revert to power plant - lets hope it makes for more interesting results.
As others have said, F1 is dull when one person dominates.
Icy Gull
Back on the rollercoaster
- Jul 5, 2003
- 72,015
I hold my hand up to being a BIG fan of Lewis, so I may be biased here. Rosberg blew away Schumacher when Schumacher made his return. Hamilton has had to learn a completely new car and yes I do think Rosberg is a better driver than Massa and certainly Webber. I think Hamilton has shown he has the edge over Rosberg for most of the latter part of the season though. The new car will now be built around Hamilton whereas I gather he had to adapt to the current car.
Hamilton did make quite a few red mist mistakes for a few years but I cannot think of a single big mistake that he has made this season, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
I agree Alonso has shown himself to be the best driver at wringing the best performance out of an underwhelming car. Grosjean has come on in leaps and bounds this year after being a bit of a shunt merchant in the past. Renault did well to stick with him when all the know it all ex drivers were suggesting they got shot of him.
F1 has the potential to be really exciting if the others can just drag Red Bull back into the pack. At the moment they are so far ahead it's not possible to compete with them. Mercedes, Ferrari, Lotus and on occasions the Sauber and the Force India have been very closely matched.
I'm really hoping the engine change levels the playing field but I fear Mercedes may turn into the new Red Bull next season, just a hunch.
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
I don't disagree, Lewis has had Alonso, Button and Rosberg as team mates and in each case has shown to be their equal or better. What I think I've been trying to say is that at 26, we have quite a lot of Vettel's career left to see how he gets on with better team mates or in another team which is inevitable at some stage, to judge him against history.
disgruntled h blocker
Active member
Since the tyre changes after Silverstone this year Red Bull have had the upper hand as their car was designed for the new more conservative tyre specifications.
Vettel, although a fast driver has been criticised in the past for not being able to overtake on the track, with his main ways of getting past drivers through pit-stop strategy.
I would argue that Alonso, Kimi and Button are equal to Vettel if they were in the same car.
Hopefully the car rule changes next year will change things around a bit, just like what happened in 1998 when Williams lost their way after the introduction of the thinner cars and grooved tyres.
Vettel, although a fast driver has been criticised in the past for not being able to overtake on the track, with his main ways of getting past drivers through pit-stop strategy.
I would argue that Alonso, Kimi and Button are equal to Vettel if they were in the same car.
Hopefully the car rule changes next year will change things around a bit, just like what happened in 1998 when Williams lost their way after the introduction of the thinner cars and grooved tyres.