Vatican Requests 1,500-Year-Old Bible Held In Turkey

[Bold Seagull]

Genuine question:

What percentage of priests do you think "bugger" children? More than 0.05%?

Too many! Catholic_sex_abuse_cases, Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland

The worse part of it all was the collusion of the Church's hierarchy to cover it all up. An utter disgrace. What other organisation could get away with this if it wasn't under the clandestine cover of a holy church!?

 

[Mellotron]

Too many! Catholic_sex_abuse_cases, Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland

The worse part of it all was the collusion of the Church's hierarchy to cover it all up. An utter disgrace. What other organisation could get away with this if it wasn't under the clandestine cover of a holy church!?

Agreed the covering up is terrible, but I still maintain there is now a HUGE discrepancy in how people see the AVERAGE priest, compared to the reality.

Why do we not see the average TEACHER as a paedo? It's pretty disgraceful really.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Agreed the covering up is terrible, but I still maintain there is now a HUGE discrepancy in how people see the AVERAGE priest, compared to the reality.

Why do we not see the average TEACHER as a paedo? It's pretty disgraceful really.

Because as soon as a teacher is caught breaking the law, they feel the full force of the law and will never teach again. When the church found it, they kept it quiet, didn't even sack the persons responsible, just asked them to pray a bit more!

I understand what you are saying, but the principle point here is a complete breakdown in trust. Even if it is only 1 priest in 10,000, how do you trust the organisation when those above that priest fail to immediately alert the appropriate authorities!? That is the shock of this scandal, and why it irrevocably tarnishes their reputation.

I have enough 'faith' that a teacher will be held to account, I'm not sure you can trust the same thing happens, even now in the church, and that is why there is the discrepancy.

 

[Mellotron]

Because as soon as a teacher is caught breaking the law, they feel the full force of the law and will never teach again. When the church found it, they kept it quiet, didn't even sack the persons responsible, just asked them to pray a bit more!

I understand what you are saying, but the principle point here is a complete breakdown in trust. Even if it is only 1 priest in 10,000, how do you trust the organisation when those above that priest fail to immediately alert the appropriate authorities!? That is the shock of this scandal, and why it irrevocably tarnishes their reputation.

I have enough 'faith' that a teacher will be held to account, I'm not sure you can trust the same thing happens, even now in the church, and that is why there is the discrepancy.

To be honest I can't really argue with that. I tried to find an angle but no, you're correct.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

If it's authentic it should be stored at the best possibile facility to ensure its long term survivial.

That does not necessarily mean the Vatican... could be the British Museum.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Ho-hum...exactly how many post on here about the POINT OF THIS THREAD

 

[dingodan]

these are not the issues. the issues are death of millions of children from famine and diseses caused of overpopulation, often because the catholic church prohibits contraception.

Your logic blows my mind.

The catholic church has caused the deaths of millions of children - by not preventing them from being born.

If only they could have not been born in the first place, then they wouldn't die.

 

[sten_super]

Your logic blows my mind.

The catholic church has caused the deaths of millions of children - by not preventing them from being born.

If only they could have not been born in the first place, then they wouldn't die.

There's a logic there - if you assume that dying of starvation involves a lot of suffering, an argument could be made that it's better to prevent this suffering by stopping their conception in the first place. Not saying I agree with it, but it could certainly be argued.

Going back to the original topic - I sincerely hope that they don't hand this document over to the Vatican. I'd much rather it was handed to independent scholars (such as the British Museum, as earlier suggested) than handed to the Vatican to suddenly 'disappear' if it says something interesting.

 

[JonathanLivingstonSeagull]

Your logic blows my mind.

The catholic church has caused the deaths of millions of children - by not preventing them from being born.

If only they could have not been born in the first place, then they wouldn't die.

It is about Catholic doctrine continuing to endorse the chaining of those in underdeveloped countries to the 'animal' cycle of birth. It has been studied and proven that if you put the women in charge of their own contraception - if you empower them and loose the chains of the anti-condom doctrine - the conditions in African villages improve. Children are not born in perpetuity, causing the fairly basic needs of the peoples in these situations to be more readily met. They are able to make the best of their social and economic conditions, just as we are here. The Catholic doctrine preys on the ignorance of those in more underdeveloped countries, whatever rewarding promises it may claim for the soul.

Along with the (almost, if it weren't SO crass) hilarious idea that we should all be repressing our natural and pleasurable desire to engage in sexual activity, especially those in poorer environments where there are profoundly less options for recreation, the Catholic Church has much to answer for.

All arguments against such logic (of the rational free-thinking mind) should generally be answered in the fact that religious bodies such as Catholicism move the goal-posts to suit the moral progressions of the time - they don't know the eternal mind of God any better than I do! The Church's implicit, enduring claim to have (infallible) jurisdiction over matters of morality, the humane and the righteous is frankly laughable by this point in it's history.

I am arguing that in environs such as Africa it does more harm than good. The spiritual rewards of beautific contemplation and loving thy neighbour do have their benefit for the faithful... but it can also be argued as terror and hypocrisy - of the eternal dictator under threat of damnation. There are enough literal minds (sanctimonious types, calvinists) for this 'hellfire' side of the spiritual coin to become disgusting and contemptible to the loving heart of any free being. In Africa it is the enforced ignorant who follow the beat of the drum, but doctrine clashes with circumstances of reality on the continent, and sets back their progress toward greater civilisation and more rewarding existence in the here and now. You know, the place that exists.

To paraphrase the late Christopher Hitchens - even when caught in wrong-doing the church will (eventually, when it gets round to it, after considerable moral pressure from civilised contemporary society) generally make a show of contrition and apology - it has apologised for activities from the Inquisition to fence-sitting during the Holocaust and for hushing up paedophilia... after which of course it has been cleansed and purified by confession and is ready to get back to being infallible all over again!

 

[beorhthelm]

If only they could have not been born in the first place, then they wouldn't die.

well, would you rather an unwanted infant be born into destitution, suffer months or years of malnourishment and illness before dieing, than slip a jonny on the old fella? just because a sect of sky god worshipers tell you its bad?

 

[mune ni kamome]

I think most people would agree that the last place it should be examined is at the Vatican. That this should be so, what a terrible mess the church has made of it's relationship with the people in this day and age

 

[pastafarian]

If one person thinks the other partner is faithful why would they feel the need to use condoms? You're talking from a point of hindsight. Menaing every single person on the planet needs to wear condoms just incase their partner is cheating, and that includes all the atheists. Who a great deal i'm sure don't wear one with their partners.

what a daft thing viewpoint,only a catholic could believe this rubbish,the clue is in the phrase BIRTH CONTROL its not all about preventing STD`s there is the moral question about over population,but morals and the catholic church do not mix!

back on topic i hope some real scholars get to examine the text before the vatican get their grubby hands on it.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

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[PILTDOWN MAN]

Because as soon as a teacher is caught breaking the law, they feel the full force of the law and will never teach again. When the church found it, they kept it quiet, didn't even sack the persons responsible, just asked them to pray a bit more!

I understand what you are saying, but the principle point here is a complete breakdown in trust. Even if it is only 1 priest in 10,000, how do you trust the organisation when those above that priest fail to immediately alert the appropriate authorities!? That is the shock of this scandal, and why it irrevocably tarnishes their reputation.

I have enough 'faith' that a teacher will be held to account, I'm not sure you can trust the same thing happens, even now in the church, and that is why there is the discrepancy.

Added to which the teaching profession is generally not full of single minded people who allow their own beliefs to cloud their judgement. If a teacher believes that the behaviour of another is suspect they , again generally speaking, would highlight this to the correct authorities. The church on the other hand is a different matter. Usually working alone these vile people, which their church stops from having a "normal " loving relationship, are able to select and groom whoever take their attraction. Normally undetected. However as has been seen locally to where I live they also work together to carry out systematic abuse. Even when this happens people led by blind faith (shall we say good honest church goers) still attempt to somehow support these bastards including the hierarchy of the church. Frankly they can all rot.

 

[Digweeds Trousers]

Very true.

On the other hand, what sane individual takes advice on how to live a family life from a celibate man who has never been married, such as a Catholic priest?

Clearly I guess you are in a position of such intellectual power that you can flippantly just dismiss the faith of people who choose to live their lives according to those beliefs. I dont suggest for a minute they are right or wrong but I do feel uncomfortable with the very modern-day line of thought that as the enlightened intellectuals of our race, we can now pass judgement on people who have strong faith or a particular set of rules that they follow.

The whole Catholic priest = paedophile line it's just a very common (verging on trendy) throw-away comment. Whenever human beings are in a situation of authority or power it is abused. Bankers, teachers, policeman, priests, vicars - all those 'jobs' will have examples of abuse of power, undermining of trust and those are the stories that will make the headlines and move from exception to FACT very quickly.

Faith is an emotive issue because it divides opionion so heavily. Throughout history 'religion' is used as a veil for more earthy, secular and political motives which makes it very convenient for people in subsequent years to make the assesment that religion causes death.

Undoubtedly people have used it as a tool for their own motives but on the basis that people declare religion to be the root of all evil then surely a corrupt MP should mean the end of democracy, a corrupt policeman should mean the end of a police force, an abusive or deviant teacher should mean a mass change in the way we educate children.

My personal opinion is that this line of thinking is a quick, convenient way to dimiss the more uncomfortable truth that human beings are fundamentally corrupt, selfish, and motivated by material gain at the expense of others. Whatever veil one chooses to cover those motives with - very often the old religion card - sadly becomes the accepted truth.

 

[fly high]

Because as soon as a teacher is caught breaking the law, they feel the full force of the law and will never teach again. When the church found it, they kept it quiet, didn't even sack the persons responsible, just asked them to pray a bit more!

I understand what you are saying, but the principle point here is a complete breakdown in trust. Even if it is only 1 priest in 10,000, how do you trust the organisation when those above that priest fail to immediately alert the appropriate authorities!? That is the shock of this scandal, and why it irrevocably tarnishes their reputation.

I have enough 'faith' that a teacher will be held to account, I'm not sure you can trust the same thing happens, even now in the church, and that is why there is the discrepancy.

To be honest I can't really argue with that. I tried to find an angle but no, you're correct.

Yes when a teacher is finally caught they face a life ban however don't kid yourself that schools never cover up or ignore a risk to children. A recent case shows that it happens & this is not the only time it has happened.

"A paedophile teacher filmed himself abusing girls in the classroom after school bosses failed over 14 years to act on 30 warnings about his behaviour."
Read more: Nigel Leat: Bosses did nothing about teacher who was paedophile 'of the most sickening order' | Mail Online

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

these are not the issues. the issues are death of millions of children from famine and diseses caused of overpopulation, often because the catholic church prohibits contraception.

Umm just a side note. The most populated nations in the world are China and India. they make up 2/5th's of the worlds population. They have sweet FA all to do with the RC church.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Oh f*** me, you mean following the teachings of the church through their priests who have been buggering children for decades!

Not to mention the hierarchy of the church covering it up for just as long!

Your nations leaders through it's royal families and governments have been repsonsible for more destruction of peoples lives and cultures than almost any other infleunce in history.

Where's your indignation at that? Or are you a moaning sanctimonious hypocrite?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

So what's the reason the Pope didn't get the Nobel Peace Prize?

The very fact and yes its a fact because the RC Church does not condone the use of condoms this has blindly led many to their death by HIV or starvation. Added to which their cover ups on child abuse which again goes right to the top I would not trust them with a single thing let alone a bit of old hide with scribbling on it.

No it hasn't. Are you a bit historically inept?

People have been having children and starving to death all through out history. To place that at a religions feet if mind blowingly stupid.

Do you know why they have big families in poor nations? Is the economical reasoning why many do beyond your bottomless wisdom?

It very much seems it is.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Yes when a teacher is finally caught they face a life ban however don't kid yourself that schools never cover up or ignore a risk to children. A recent case shows that it happens & this is not the only time it has happened.

"A paedophile teacher filmed himself abusing girls in the classroom after school bosses failed over 14 years to act on 30 warnings about his behaviour."
Read more: Nigel Leat: Bosses did nothing about teacher who was paedophile 'of the most sickening order' | Mail Online

This was one school, one head that failed to act. I'm not going to dispute the secular world is immune to such acts, however the point being made was that the church systematically and institutionally across the globe endeavoured to cover these matters up time and time again.

There will be other instances where a head has failed to act, but these are individual cases of negligence on the part of a particular head, or in some cases, negligence by the Local Authority. The Catholic Church were not negligent, they knew exactly what was happening, and endeavoured to cover it up. There is a massive difference to what you are trying to suggest.