[Brighton] Valley Gardens works

[Seasidesage]

Oh, how very pompous of you, dahling. *Turns way in dismay*



Of course you're not angry, my sweet. Or rude...

Bore off. I'm going to bed.

 

[Sirnormangall]

The money comes from the government, it gets spent on Valley gardens, or it goes back.

Thanks, yes I wondered if that was the case. My question regarding spending priorities applies to all levels of government. In a time of continuing cutbacks, it’s even more important that large capital expenditure projects such as this are able to demonstrate tangible benefits. I’ve yet to be convinced on the merits of the Valley Gardens works.

 

[The Large One]

Bore off. I'm going to bed.

Sweet dreams.

 

[The Large One]

Thanks, yes I wondered if that was the case. My question regarding spending priorities applies to all levels of government. In a time of continuing cutbacks, it’s even more important that large capital expenditure projects such as this are able to demonstrate tangible benefits. I’ve yet to be convinced on the merits of the Valley Gardens works.

Depends how you define ''tangible benefits'.

Jack Straw's pictures showed the gardens, as when they were previously tended, as looking incredible. And yet, we had a wasted area as people were not able to access these spaces. These days, what we appear to have is a glorified huge central reservation, with little to show for it.

If use can be made of this space as an open feature - for collaboration, for entertainment, for celebration, for the arts, for people generally - I'd suggest this brings a clear benefit. How is it measured? Some things are unquantifiable. All I'd hope is that it isn't measured purely in terms of cost.

 

[Sirnormangall]

Depends how you define ''tangible benefits'.

Jack Straw's pictures showed the gardens, as when they were previously tended, as looking incredible. And yet, we had a wasted area as people were not able to access these spaces. These days, what we appear to have is a glorified huge central reservation, with little to show for it.

If use can be made of this space as an open feature - for collaboration, for entertainment, for celebration, for the arts, for people generally - I'd suggest this brings a clear benefit. How is it measured? Some things are unquantifiable. All I'd hope is that it isn't measured purely in terms of cost.

I think everyone would agree that it’s difficult to quantify some of the benefits and that cost shouldn’t be the sole measure. But assuming that the city has other similar areas that are suitable for entertainment, celebration, the arts etc how does expenditure on these works rank alongside the need for more housing and education funding? I don’t know the answer btw and I’m not seeking to make a political point!

 

[Gwylan]

Dare say you are right. That's what horrendous means. I cannot see any way it happens, but equally I cannot see a truly workable solution without one. Flying cars maybe? It;s likely to remain shite for the rest of my life and no amount of cycle/bus lanes is likely to change that unfortunately.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'workable solution'. A workable solution to what exactly? Brighton's transport system is not too bad, as TLO says, bus use is high and not declining. It's relatively quick getting from one end of town to another and we're getting close to a network of bike lanes. One thing that does benefit the place is that car ownership is significantly lower than the national average, that keeps the average speed quite high and stops B&H getting too crowded. It's not perfect but it's better than lots of places.

Valley Gardens looks to be a worthwhile project that will enhance the town centre, I'm looking forward to it being finished.

 

[The Large One]

I think everyone would agree that it’s difficult to quantify some of the benefits and that cost shouldn’t be the sole measure. But assuming that the city has other similar areas that are suitable for entertainment, celebration, the arts etc how does expenditure on these works rank alongside the need for more housing and education funding? I don’t know the answer btw and I’m not seeking to make a political point!

I get what you're saying.

I'm only using arts and entertainment as an example as to what can happen on Valley Gardens. First and foremost it needs to be a people space, where currently it isn't. But then it's hardly a 'gardens' either. The Speigeltent during the Festival has shown what can be achieved in such a small space, as have Hove Lawns for a fair whack of the year. The possibilities are huge.

The only reason that this project is happening is because it's part of a capital funding bid which the city successfully applied for from central government. As to whether funds should be used to pay for education or housing - well, of course it's vital they should be, but we have a government with a very cavalier attitude towards both. However, the fact that this is the case shouldn't be a reason for the Valley Gardens project not happening.

Put it this way, I suppose you'd be perilously close to building on the sewers and / or the Wellesbourne if new housing went up in Valley Gardens.

 

[Seasidesage]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'workable solution'. A workable solution to what exactly? Brighton's transport system is not too bad, as TLO says, bus use is high and not declining. It's relatively quick getting from one end of town to another and we're getting close to a network of bike lanes. One thing that does benefit the place is that car ownership is significantly lower than the national average, that keeps the average speed quite high and stops B&H getting too crowded. It's not perfect but it's better than lots of places.

Valley Gardens looks to be a worthwhile project that will enhance the town centre, I'm looking forward to it being finished.

Sorry but you criticised my use of horrendous but you think its relatively quick to get from one side of town to the other? In comparison to what? Walking?

A workable solution would be something that would allow you to move around freely at any time. I work in London regularly and while we have agreed that building an underground system is probably unworkable You can move around pretty freely at any time, even if you are crushed in like sardines. Have you for instance tried Lewes Road at rush hour? Relatively quick?!!!! Lol. Bus and cars are gridlock while cycling is dangerous to say the least.

Not sure what journeys you are making and when, but your experience doesn't reflect mine I'm afraid.

 

[Gwylan]

Sorry but you criticised my use of horrendous but you think its relatively quick to get from one side of town to the other? In comparison to what? Walking?

A workable solution would be something that would allow you to move around freely at any time. I work in London regularly and while we have agreed that building an underground system is probably unworkable You can move around pretty freely at any time, even if you are crushed in like sardines. Have you for instance tried Lewes Road at rush hour? Relatively quick?!!!! Lol. Bus and cars are gridlock while cycling is dangerous to say the least.

Not sure what journeys you are making and when, but your experience doesn't reflect mine I'm afraid.

Sounds like you're being totally unrealistic. Of course it takes longer to get around town in rush hour - that's when everyone is travelling. However, even in rush hour, I can get on my bike I get right across town in 20/25 minutes.

A bus journey is nowhere near as as bad as you make it out to be. Earlier this year, I was coaching rugby at a primary school and had to get from Coldean to Hove. I couldn't cycle as I had equipment with me and I had to change buses. But despite taking two buses, it still took only about 45/50 minutes to travel more than 6 miles (and that includes waiting times) and that's when the roads are at their most crowded.

You're very much mistaken if you think a bus journey in London is quicker, I occasionally used to get a bus from Victoria to my office in TCR (about a third of the distance) and it took exactly an hour at peak time.

Yes, of course, it would be quicker by tube, but we've already agreed that it's impossible, but Brighton doesn't compare badly to other places - all cities are going to be busy at rush hour, it's a fact of life.

 

[Stat Brother]

This is the point many car-slaves are missing.

People need to be reminded of the other options, reminded they are quite probably better than expected and might actually be better than just sitting in their car.

 

[blue-shifted]

Disclaimer, (not a public transport professional or expert)

I’d add my weight to the comment that Brighton does take a while to get around in, by foot, bus, bike or car compared to similar sized cities, (London isn’t really a fair comparison).
There are some fairly simple and relatively low cost things that could be done, well lower cost than a monorail anyway.

I notice a lot of buses are delayed by parked cars or vans loading or unloading. It also causes cyclists to have to go into the traffic. Lewes Road is especially bad for this. Some type of no stopping between 8am and 8pm rules in the city centre would benefit this.

The buses, without exception crawl all the way past Western Road and down North Street. What if they had some linking services which cut this out. So for example a route which went something like Hove Station, 7 dials Preston Circus, then up either London, Lewes or Ditching Road. It would certainly make getting to the Amex easier for the hordes of Albion who live in Hove, Portslade etc.

Withdean park and ride could work. It needs to be advertised, signposted and prioritised and the buses shouldn’t go round Tongdene. It needs to be much quicker to get to Churchill

There are some good cycle routes, however provision is patchy and there’s not obviously a joined up approach to how journeys, for example the sea front cycle path should be linked better to the inland routes, especially at key junctions like at the Sea Life Centre.

I also think walking would be a bit quicker and a bit more pleasant if they got rid of a lot of the pedestrian crossings and replaced them with Zebra crossings. Like they’ve done at 7 dials.

All involved have done brilliantly with the Life Bikes coming in and I think more private ideas together with a more joined up central strategy can make the city a quicker, nicer place to get around.

 

[blue-shifted]

What won’t help is car drivers blaming cyclists, cyclists blaming pedestrians, blaming the student population etc etc etc. If you find yourself doing it, pause for moment and ask yourself if you need to grow up

 

[Boys 9d]

One area that needs a total rethink is the series of junctions between Churchill Square and the Clock Tower.

 

[Uter]

I do wonder whether the clock tower junction might be suitable for a "Pedestrian scramble" aka "Barnes dance". The current configuration really does penalise the high proportion of pedestrians wanting to cross diagonally as they currently need to wait for two cycles of the lights to do so. Also, the sequence takes so long to complete that most people just give up waiting and cross on red, which is risky because of the number of buses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_scramble

 

[Uter]

I also think walking would be a bit quicker and a bit more pleasant if they got rid of a lot of the pedestrian crossings and replaced them with Zebra crossings.

The worst pedestrian crossings are the two stage ones IMO. There is one near where we live and I use it when walking the children to school. You press the button. Sometimes it changes immediately, but most of the time you have to wait around 30 seconds (absolutely no idea why), by which time the traffic has often cleared, so we either have to stand their like lemons or, I give my children really mixed messages about crossing the road and cross on the red man. Then you have to do it all again. It has what I assume are sensors to detect traffic and I suspect if it thinks there is traffic it won't change until a certain amount of time has elapsed, because presumably it was felt that traffic flow trumps pedestrians' convenience.

 

[The Large One]

I notice a lot of buses are delayed by parked cars or vans loading or unloading. It also causes cyclists to have to go into the traffic. Lewes Road is especially bad for this. Some type of no stopping between 8am and 8pm rules in the city centre would benefit this.

This part of Lewes Road (between Elm Grove and the Vogue Gyratory) is notoriously bad for what you're talking about. There is a only a small scope for widening the road whereby the flying bus stops (like the bus stops further up Lewes Road where the cycle lane goes between bus stop and the pavement) may not be practical.

Not sure of the answer on that. But deliveries are necessary to the shops and restaurants there.

The buses, without exception crawl all the way past Western Road and down North Street. What if they had some linking services which cut this out. So for example a route which went something like Hove Station, 7 dials Preston Circus, then up either London, Lewes or Ditching Road. It would certainly make getting to the Amex easier for the hordes of Albion who live in Hove, Portslade etc

I get your point, but one of the traffic considerations was that - in the city entre at least - buses would use 'bus-only' or 'private vehicle-free' routes. e.g. Western Road, North Street, and dedicated bus lanes on the A23 and A270. To put buses back into already heavy traffic will make matters worse, especially one route you suggest - Seven Dials to Preston Circus.

Withdean park and ride could work. It needs to be advertised, signposted and prioritised and the buses shouldn’t go round Tongdene. It needs to be much quicker to get to Churchill

It could, and I'm baffled as to why the bus company AND the council didn't shout it from the highest roof tops. However, the previous scheme of it stopping at 5pm was always going to put people off. So we at least know what that part of the resolution would be.

There are some good cycle routes, however provision is patchy and there’s not obviously a joined up approach to how journeys, for example the sea front cycle path should be linked better to the inland routes, especially at key junctions like at the Sea Life Centre.

I also think walking would be a bit quicker and a bit more pleasant if they got rid of a lot of the pedestrian crossings and replaced them with Zebra crossings. Like they’ve done at 7 dials.

Agreed re: cycle routes. I think the Valley Gardens project partially deals with that.

As for the Seven Dials, I think that that has become a far better junction. Traffic uses it better, it's a nicer junction for pedestrians, and yes the zebra crossing are much more appropriate. Not every junction would benefit from zebra crossings, but it's worth looking at. That said, I'm sure they do.

All involved have done brilliantly with the Life Bikes coming in and I think more private ideas together with a more joined up central strategy can make the city a quicker, nicer place to get around.

Yup.

 

[Stat Brother]

Coming down from Ditchling today, I decided to pay a little more attention to my surroundings.

Am I right in thinking this development is just basically replicating what's already in place to the north?

 

[Stat Brother]

One area that needs a total rethink is the series of junctions between Churchill Square and the Clock Tower.

I do wonder whether the clock tower junction might be suitable for a "Pedestrian scramble" aka "Barnes dance". The current configuration really does penalise the high proportion of pedestrians wanting to cross diagonally as they currently need to wait for two cycles of the lights to do so. Also, the sequence takes so long to complete that most people just give up waiting and cross on red, which is risky because of the number of buses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_scramble

The whole lot should be car free.

A rectangle from the cinema through the clock tower up to the station.
Then along to Valley Gardens, down to the pier and back along to the cinema.

 

[Jack Straw]

A quick progress report. Sorry - no photos.
The north area of St Peters Church looks a write-off with what looks like the site compound being constructed. An area in the middle of the main road on the southbound road adjacent to the south side of St Peters Church has been dug up and left in a big heap on the grass in front of the church.
I'm glad I had a camera for the Falmer Watch!

 

[wakeytom]

The whole lot should be car free.

A rectangle from the cinema through the clock tower up to the station.
Then along to Valley Gardens, down to the pier and back along to the cinema.

What about people needing to get in and out of there for work etc?