[Palace] Unwelcome Palace Fans

[Bruntburger]

How very naïve and selective . . Had you been marched around the town by the Police, as you put it, you would have ben part of a potentially violent mob, clearly intent on trouble. Why else would you have arrived hours before kick-off in what was clearly an organised attempt to disrupt. Had you arrived from London with, say, a coupe of mates, and gone for a quiet drink as thousands of others manage to do, then you would not have been marched anywhere. Don't tell me otherwise -my son in law had the unenviable duty of keeping the Palace rabble from our own trouble makers, as well as dealing with those clearly the worse for wear which made them even more aggressive.

Clearly you don’t attend many away games.
Is your son in law the officer who found all those dangerous weapons?

 

[Hastings gull]

The general misconception is if you're a football fan, enjoy a pint, have a sing song, then your classed a potential hooligan.
The Palace fans marched around Brighton were in high spirits, but generally well behaved.Things only changed when they finally reached the Amex after kick off, and a mob of your lot we're waiting.

So this mob you talk about were not watching the match at all, obviously, given that your rabble arrived late.

 

[Hastings gull]

Clearly you don’t attend many away games.
Is your son in law the officer who found all those dangerous weapons?

I don't now but over the years have attended many. It is perfectly possible to avoid being marched around, if you want to, as you well know.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I've posted elsewhere but worth posting here too, I think:

What I really don't understand is this - if there is sufficient evidence that a fan has done something wrong to warrant being banned from an entire town then why have no fans been charged for those offences yet?

The ban is something that follows from committing an offence. If you haven't been charged with committing an offence then how can you be banned? And how can you appeal against a punishment when you don't know what it was for?

You don't have to be charged with a criminal offence to get a banning order. Generally a banning order will follow a conviction, it can just follow a Complaint.
On Complaint - s.14B Football Spectators Act 1989
Prosecutors are able to apply for a "civil" football banning order on complaint. The court must make an order if satisfied that the respondent has at any time caused or contributed to any violence or disorder in the UK or elsewhere and that there are reasonable grounds to believe that it would help to prevent violence or disorder at or in connection with any regulated football matches.

By jumping the turnstile, and seen on cctv, means the club can make a complaint about disorder, which doesn't necessarily mean a criminal offence.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/football-related-offences-and-football-banning-orders

 

[Buzzer]

Would Brighton Station not be packed prior to the match? Would not having this mob make the situation that much worse? Would it not make more sense to bring them on after the huge bulk of Albion fans had left? Of course fans will arrive in Brighton early, as it is a good place to visit, compared to many other cities/towns, as you say, but the snarling mob of fans on this occasion ( and given the rivalry which is an excuse for violence) that the Police had to deal with could hardly be described as "absolutely nothing sinister". I am passing this on to my son in law who gets called to patrol this sort of thing - he will love your description.

The police have dealt with large crowds of high-risk fans loads of times before. We've had Millwall and Leeds at the Amex loads of times. And this isn't the first time that Palace have played at our place. How did the police managed to get the high-risk Palace fans into the ground before the game at those matches?

Please, read what I wrote and not what you wanted me to write. I said that there is absolutely nothing sinister in taking a day off from work so you can do an all-dayer in a town for a midweek away game. I've done it loads of times.

"Snarling mob of fans". - seriously, with comments like that your views are an irrelevance.

 

[Dougie]

So this mob you talk about were not watching the match at all, obviously, given that your rabble arrived late.

You do know why they arrived late don’t you ?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

So this mob you talk about were not watching the match at all, obviously, given that your rabble arrived late.

That's quite an inflammatory post.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

FAO Merry Prankster: I've tweeted this to the FSF and copied you in. I hope you don't mind but I think they need to know about this too.

Thank you. Here is the reply from FSF

I’ve seen letters from CPFC to the fans concerned. They’ve had their tickets withdrawn and been refunded. They’ve not been threatened with arrest rather strongly advised not to travel to Brighton.

The last part of which I would argue is semantics.

 

[Mackenzie]

The general misconception is if you're a football fan, enjoy a pint, have a sing song, then your classed a potential hooligan.
The Palace fans marched around Brighton were in high spirits, but generally well behaved.Things only changed when they finally reached the Amex after kick off, and a mob of your lot we're waiting.

Your fans were an utter disgrace last time, I hope the police watch you like hawks.

 

[tiberious]

Yeah but that is not what I said. I said could not should (in that I believe you cant just stop someone going into a city, but a club could refuse people going into a ground same as a night club)

I think you misunderstood me

But Im not convinced about this story one bit, doesnt add up. They should apply for an interview at McDonalds then play the human rights card if arrested, which I have no idea what the charge could be

Maybe they have been identified for potentially causing trouble at the last game. The OP admits one jumped the turnstile. Maybe they have sent his details to the police and are now advising him he could get nicked if he attends.

 

[Return of the Rev]

Your fans were an utter disgrace last time, I hope the police watch you like hawks.

That's all they did the first time, needs more than watching.

 

[Buzzer]

You don't have to be charged with a criminal offence to get a banning order. Generally a banning order will follow a conviction, it can just follow a Complaint.
On Complaint - s.14B Football Spectators Act 1989
Prosecutors are able to apply for a "civil" football banning order on complaint. The court must make an order if satisfied that the respondent has at any time caused or contributed to any violence or disorder in the UK or elsewhere and that there are reasonable grounds to believe that it would help to prevent violence or disorder at or in connection with any regulated football matches.

By jumping the turnstile, and seen on cctv, means the club can make a complaint about disorder, which doesn't necessarily mean a criminal offence.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/football-related-offences-and-football-banning-orders

The inference from your quote is that if there was a banning order then the letter would have come from a court because they are the ones who would issue it, not the club and the fan would have been informed of the charge as well. By the sounds of it, this is not a banning order because, as I say, it doesn't appear to be from the courts and also it's for a specific match on a specific day. Banning orders are blanket bans aren't they? The words quoted seem to imply this.

 

[maffew]

Maybe they have been identified for potentially causing trouble at the last game. The OP admits one jumped the turnstile. Maybe they have sent his details to the police and are now advising him he could get nicked if he attends.

Nicked for what?

 

[Buzzer]

Thank you. Here is the reply from FSF

I’ve seen letters from CPFC to the fans concerned. They’ve had their tickets withdrawn and been refunded. They’ve not been threatened with arrest rather strongly advised not to travel to Brighton.

The last part of which I would argue is semantics.

Semantics indeed.

Happy new year by the way to yourself and your lovely wife.

 

[Mackenzie]

That's all they did the first time, needs more than watching.

Certainly need to have a bigger presence at the turnstiles.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The inference from your quote is that if there was a banning order then the letter would have come from a court because they are the ones who would issue it, not the club and the fan would have been informed of the charge as well. By the sounds of it, this is not a banning order because, as I say, it doesn't appear to be from the courts and also it's for a specific match on a specific day. Banning orders are blanket bans aren't they? The words quoted seem to imply this.

It's hard to tell without seeing the wording on the letter. I suppose football clubs have the right to ban anyone, in the same way a pub or restaurant would ban someone from their premises.
I am assuming the letter came from Palace, and not the court?

 

[Hastings gull]

The police have dealt with large crowds of high-risk fans loads of times before. We've had Millwall and Leeds at the Amex loads of times. And this isn't the first time that Palace have played at our place. How did the police managed to get the high-risk Palace fans into the ground before the game at those matches?

Please, read what I wrote and not what you wanted me to write. I said that there is absolutely nothing sinister in taking a day off from work so you can do an all-dayer in a town for a midweek away game. I've done it loads of times.

No, my friend, it is not about what I wanted you to write, as you have just felt in necessary to clarify what you wrote - you merely talked about nothing sinister, and did not elaborate about taking days off work to have a few beers with mates etc. The "nothing sinister" comment was about this particular event and not fans in general. Of course it is not necessarily sinister to do as you describe, but you and your mates having a few drinks would not need to be heavily policed, and the potential for violence would not be as great as it was that afternoon/night. Surely you must see the difference instead of dismissing others' views as an irrelevance, which is very pompous.

 

[Buzzer]

The "nothing sinister" comment was about this particular event and not fans in general. Of course it is not necessarily sinister to do as you describe, but you and your mates having a few drinks would not need to be heavily policed, and the potential for violence would not be as great as it was that afternoon/night. Surely you must see the difference instead of dismissing others' views as an irrelevance, which is very pompous.

You wrote this:

Had you been marched around the town by the Police, as you put it, you would have ben part of a potentially violent mob, clearly intent on trouble. Why else would you have arrived hours before kick-off in what was clearly an organised attempt to disrupt.

And I'll repeat... because it's the biggest game of the year for them and they wanted to make a day of it. I've done it before at Palace games, I've done it before at Orient, Millwall, Southampton and West Ham games. Christ, I've done it at so many grounds on weekday away games I've lost count.

 

[Hastings gull]

You do know why they arrived late don’t you ?

I do, as it has been well documented. I am questioning your logic, which you have not understood. You said that the Place fans were generally well behaved ( I like the word "generally" ) until they met the Brighton mob. Given that the Palace mob was late arriving, that must mean that the Brighton fans had ignored the start of the match, according to what you state. This seems rather unlikely.

 

[el punal]

Calm down was only a joke. Either way if there’s no banning order in place, regardless of who anyone supported I’d be encouraging anyone to contact the FSF to look into.

Need to stop Police discriminating against football fans

I'm a football fan and I haven't been discriminated against by the police. Is there a manual or set of instructions that I can read to help change that situation. Thanks awfully.