[Politics] Universal Basic Income anyone?

[Bob'n'weave]

UBI has been knocking around for a while and has/is been implemented in a number of ways, in a number of countries/regions to stabilise failing economies or address specific problematic sections of populations, i.e certain provinces or impoverished sections of society, Brazil is a good example of this. Canada, Africa and Europe have also used various UBI models for varying reasons, or as case studies.


Automation, innovations in tech, globalisation and rising populations are all underlying factors for experimentation in UBI since the 70's and seem to be relevant just as much now. This, plus the downturn in global economies due to C19 means we are facing serious financial challenges that will impact huge sections of the UK population.

Given the situation ATM, does anyone see some form of UBI in the UK as workable?

 

[Questions]

It’s Bourbon biscuits for me although I do like a nice ginger nut now and again.

 

[Seasidesage]

I think it is inevitable. With globalisation and automation a lot of the lower and indeed higher skilled jobs we do currently are going to disappear. Without UBI in some form you are going to have huge numbers of people poor, even more disenfranchised than they are now and with no purpose. If you don't do something those people are eventually going to challenge society at all levels...

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

UBI has been knocking around for a while and has/is been implemented in a number of ways, in a number of countries/regions to stabilise failing economies or address specific problematic sections of populations, i.e certain provinces or impoverished sections of society, Brazil is a good example of this. Canada, Africa and Europe have also used various UBI models for varying reasons, or as case studies.


Automation, innovations in tech, globalisation and rising populations are all underlying factors for experimentation in UBI since the 70's and seem to be relevant just as much now. This, plus the downturn in global economies due to C19 means we are facing serious financial challenges that will impact huge sections of the UK population.

Given the situation ATM, does anyone see some form of UBI in the UK as workable?

It could be an idea whose time has come, but there are very many issues of both principle and practicality. I've not got too many issues with the former, but the latter is really tricky. Just to take the most obvious: at what level should it be set? If 'too high' then hits incentives to work in low paid jobs; if 'too low' then it won't really target those most in need. I definitely think it's worth discussing and I think that there are some pilot schemes elsewhere that we can learn from. Very hard to imagine, though, a national consensus emerging.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I kind of sit on the fence. Yes everyone should have a certain standard of living but I'm not sure just giving out cash is the right way to achieve that. It's a bit like Child Benefit - who really uses it for the purpose for which it was given ? Instead it should be free school uniforms, food vouchers and vouchers for kids activities. UBI should be the same - instead of cash everyone should get an allowance of water, electric and gas. All essential commodities which cost far too much money. If UBI extends past that then food vouchers and maybe subsidised internet access.

 

[Machiavelli]

It could be an idea whose time has come, but there are very many issues of both principle and practicality. I've not got too many issues with the former, but the latter is really tricky. Just to take the most obvious: at what level should it be set? If 'too high' then hits incentives to work in low paid jobs; if 'too low' then it won't really target those most in need. I definitely think it's worth discussing and I think that there are some pilot schemes elsewhere that we can learn from. Very hard to imagine, though, a national consensus emerging.

Agree with you on this, although there's a quite easy way around the 'too high' element: you just increase the reward and/or lower the number of hours worked required for those essential jobs that are currently low paid (which, of course, shouldn't be as the public are now beginning to recognise).

 

[WATFORD zero]

I kind of sit on the fence. Yes everyone should have a certain standard of living but I'm not sure just giving out cash is the right way to achieve that. It's a bit like Child Benefit - who really uses it for the purpose for which it was given ? Instead it should be free school uniforms, food vouchers and vouchers for kids activities. UBI should be the same - instead of cash everyone should get an allowance of water, electric and gas. All essential commodities which cost far too much money. If UBI extends past that then food vouchers and maybe subsidised internet access.

I think this pandemic has just hastened the need to address this. With the rapid advance of the cashless society, you would hope that we should be able to come up with a method of ensuring the money is spent in the 'approved areas' without the stigma associated with the use of vouchers etc.

I remember as a single parent, council estate kid, queuing separately for free school dinners. (In what was a very small queue at the local Grammar !). And I also agree that activities should be on that 'approved list'

 

[Machiavelli]

Another thing to add to this discussion is that it will mobilise mass opposition from most of the press, especially if it's funded through pursuing aggressive tax avoidance and evasion and/or progressive taxation and/or a progressive carbon consumption tax.

 

[Yoda]

You'll be labeled a Communist for such talk by some.

 

[beorhthelm]

im glad the question is it workable, because thats the really important point. as concept its even gained advocates on the neo-liberal side of economics.

the cost is high. take the working age population, ~46m, and give them £100 a month thats a ~£240bn cost. about twice the total welfare bill. now, if you are following the idea that UBI replaces welfare that means you only need to find about £120bn, which means ~17% increase in government spending, taxes raised to fund.

except, welfare includes many additonal payments on top of the basic unemployment, are you going to keep them or not? and what about dependents? and then there is the largest problem, that £100 is probably not enough, certainly for living in the south east or London. i've ignored the pensioners, as they will not benefit from UBI until its north of £135, once it does thats further costs.

so if you implement it strictly with UBI and nothing else in the way of welfare, its possibly practical to finance. if you increase taxes to cover the £120bn. if you want to retain the raft of benefits above the basic, it becomes untenable.

 

[beorhthelm]

I kind of sit on the fence. Yes everyone should have a certain standard of living but I'm not sure just giving out cash is the right way to achieve that. It's a bit like Child Benefit - who really uses it for the purpose for which it was given ? Instead it should be free school uniforms, food vouchers and vouchers for kids activities. UBI should be the same - instead of cash everyone should get an allowance of water, electric and gas. All essential commodities which cost far too much money. If UBI extends past that then food vouchers and maybe subsidised internet access.

a general alternative would be along these lines, to provide basics on means tested basis. this is apparently anathema to all sides politically, we cant even see the logic of providing food vouchers to those in need to replace foodbanks.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

a general alternative would be along these lines, to provide basics on means tested basis. this is apparently anathema to all sides politically, we cant even see the logic of providing food vouchers to those in need to replace foodbanks.

I shudder to say this as I'm anything but a fan of theirs, but the Green Party have long suggested this. I'll accept they have the same chance of coming to power as I do becoming the Queen.

 

[Machiavelli]

You'll be labeled a Communist for such talk by some.

You will see from the above^ that neoliberals such as Milton Friedman have been advocating it for a while. I'm somewhat torn on it.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I kind of sit on the fence. Yes everyone should have a certain standard of living but I'm not sure just giving out cash is the right way to achieve that. It's a bit like Child Benefit - who really uses it for the purpose for which it was given ? Instead it should be free school uniforms, food vouchers and vouchers for kids activities. UBI should be the same - instead of cash everyone should get an allowance of water, electric and gas. All essential commodities which cost far too much money. If UBI extends past that then food vouchers and maybe subsidised internet access.

So, what you mean is give people benefits? UBI is different.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I’m broadly in favour of giving everyone a basic income and removing the chaotic and costly benefits system. If you want to sit on your arse all day and do nothing, fine. If you want to work and top it up, fine. And of course there’s lots of options in between. There’s details which need addressing, like geographical weighting, but I’m broadly in principle of this idea.

 

[Chicken Run]

I’m broadly in favour of giving everyone a basic income and removing the chaotic and costly benefits system. If you want to sit on your arse all day and do nothing, fine. If you want to work and top it up, fine. And of course there’s lots of options in between. There’s details which need addressing, like geographical weighting, but I’m broadly in principle of this idea.

So what one expect to get living in Hove assuming no top up?


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[Herr Tubthumper]

So what one expect to get living in Hove assuming no top up?


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No idea.

 

[Bob'n'weave]

im glad the question is it workable, because thats the really important point. as concept its even gained advocates on the neo-liberal side of economics.

the cost is high. take the working age population, ~46m, and give them £100 a month thats a ~£240bn cost. about twice the total welfare bill. now, if you are following the idea that UBI replaces welfare that means you only need to find about £120bn, which means ~17% increase in government spending, taxes raised to fund.

except, welfare includes many additonal payments on top of the basic unemployment, are you going to keep them or not? and what about dependents? and then there is the largest problem, that £100 is probably not enough, certainly for living in the south east or London. i've ignored the pensioners, as they will not benefit from UBI until its north of £135, once it does thats further costs.

so if you implement it strictly with UBI and nothing else in the way of welfare, its possibly practical to finance. if you increase taxes to cover the £120bn. if you want to retain the raft of benefits above the basic, it becomes untenable.

Agreed, there are a lot questions regarding workability. As long as all the variables are looked at there may be a way forward with this. For example there is the additional saving in administrating/facilitating of a single flat payment. The universal credit admin is monolithic, they even pay a department to 'track' levels of underpayments through admin errors, and that doesn't account for the huge numbers of claimants who are not getting all the benefits they are entitled to, Its an expensive mess from a management perspective.

I'm still on the fence myself about UBI. As you say, how it's paid for and what it covers are going to need to be balanced fairly and transparent in what it's intended to achieve. In a perfect world, that could be a long way off, if at all. In the current climate, I am open to the suggestion, either as a band aid, temporary fix, or as a longer-term approach to the unemployment problem, or even to future-proof us from another lock-down level economic event.

 

[Chicken Run]

No idea.

Typical socialist[emoji23] Great ideas but no clue of the cost...


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[Herr Tubthumper]

Typical socialist[emoji23] Great ideas but no clue of the cost...


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As I said, I’m in agreement with the principle. Which part of this are you struggling with?