[Politics] UKIP Last out turn off the light.

[heathgate]

Two years ago this party forced a vote on leaving the EU.
Yesterday they voted 14 - 1 to get rid of their leader, he is the 1 by the way, but he wont go.
Today 8 more have left the party.
As of Wednesday they may be renamed the
United Kingdom Independent Person.
No doubt that they did change this country, whether for good or bad, but surely the time has come for the party to call it a day, job done.

Labour kept Corbyn under similar circumstances.... but I don't vote for either UKIP or Labour, so this news item is a non story for me.

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[JC Footy Genius]

There is no requirement in democracy to suggest that the will of the majority must force the minority to change its mind. You may have noticed that those who were anti-EU membership continued to go on about it for forty years after losing the first vote over whether the UK should stay in. Let's not have double standards eh?

Strawmanesque. Who has ever said the minority should be forced to change their mind? All I am doing is pointing out it's a bit undemocratic calling for another go before the will of majority has been enacted in the previous vote (s). The same would apply if we had hypotheyically voted to join the EU and Farage type characters called for another go before we did. Whereas all those on the Brexit threads still complaining about the referendum result now would most likely be first in the queue telling him to respect the democratic vote .... double standards indeed.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Strawmanesque. Who has ever said the minority should be forced to change their mind? All I am doing is pointing out it's a bit undemocratic calling for another go before the will of majority has been enacted in the previous vote (s). The same would apply if we had hypotheyically voted to join the EU and Farage type characters called for another go before we did. Whereas all those on the Brexit threads still complaining about the referendum result now would most likely be first in the queue telling him to respect the democratic vote .... double standards indeed.

Oh good grief, here we go again.

Just because people voted Remain doesn't mean they are just going to think "well that's alright then and just carry on with life, any more than Brexiteers would have done if it had gone the other way. Nigel Farage has spent his life probably feeling angry about Europe, I still feel angry about the BREXIT vote.

But it does not mean that they are all beavering away behind the scenes desperately trying to engineer a rerun.

 

[Gwylan]

Sorry, I should have said that my 2 thirds rule would only apply to a binary choice.

OK, but I maintain that the more choices you have, the less likely it is that any one will hold sway. FPTP is always going to attract a healthy vote so, to win, another voting system is going to be seen as much better. The various forms of PR are going to have their own adherents so it's very unlikely the voters will coalesce behind one form - unless it's a binary choice. And, as we've seen, a binary choice is not going to lead to two-thirds of the vote.

 

[Gwylan]

Labour kept Corbyn under similar circumstances....

I don't know where you got that idea from. There has not been National Executive vote against Corbyn. He was challenged by Owen Smith and won that leadership election comfortably but that's not the same as a NEC vote.

 

[e77]

Was always going to happen in the event of a Leave vote.

Perhaps controversially I think had they had a group of MPs they would have been scrutinised more and the Leave vote would have been less likely.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I don't know where you got that idea from. There has not been National Executive vote against Corbyn. He was challenged by Owen Smith and won that leadership election comfortably but that's not the same as a NEC vote.

Perhaps he means the Labour MP's that passed a vote of no confidence in Corbyn 172 - 40 and the 52 resignations from the Shadow cabinet/ Ministers ... even [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION] abandoned him! I would say that was a bit worse than a NEC vote.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Oh good grief, here we go again.

Just because people voted Remain doesn't mean they are just going to think "well that's alright then and just carry on with life, any more than Brexiteers would have done if it had gone the other way. Nigel Farage has spent his life probably feeling angry about Europe, I still feel angry about the BREXIT vote.

But it does not mean that they are all beavering away behind the scenes desperately trying to engineer a rerun.

Once again who says anyone is expecting them to?

I have said on many occasions the Remoaner undemocratic loons seeking to thwart/reverse Brexit are not representative of Remain voters but as you suggest they do have an uncanny resemblance to their Farage/UKIP nemesis. Which amuses me no end ...

 

[Gwylan]

Perhaps he means the Labour MP's that passed a vote of no confidence in Corbyn 172 - 40 and the 52 resignations from the Shadow cabinet/ Ministers ... even [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION] abandoned him! I would say that was a bit worse than a NEC vote.

Except that the Labour MPs' vote had no legal clout. The UKIP NEC vote has led to an election, the MPs' vote didn't. It was only Smith standing that led to an election.

I can't see a comparison between a bloke who won an election with more than 70% of the vote and someone who won with 20-odd percent.

 

[heathgate]

I don't know where you got that idea from. There has not been National Executive vote against Corbyn. He was challenged by Owen Smith and won that leadership election comfortably but that's not the same as a NEC vote.

20 of his shadow cabinet either resigned or were sacked in early 2016.... pretty damning

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[Half Time Pies]

Because you're even less likely to get two-thirds majority that way.

Let's say that only about 25% of voters want to stick with FPTP (I think it would be higher than that but let's assume otherwise). The referendum offers the choice of Party List, AV and Mixed Member Proportional, say. 30% like PL, 10% like AV and 35% like MMP.

So, under your two-thirds idea, we'd stick with FPTP (the third most popular) as there's no majority for change.

I don't think you needed 3 or 4 alternatives just one that was a credible alternative. The minority parties like Lib Dems, UKIP and the greens were advocating change to a proportional system but what we ended up with was a choice between 1 un-proportional system and another. Nobody understood what AV was or why it would make any difference and even the parties who advocated changing to it had a hard time raising any form of coherent argument in favour of it because it wasn't proportional.

The conservatives stitched the whole vote up and the Lib Dems fell for it.

 

[Gwylan]

I don't think you needed 3 or 4 alternatives just one that was a credible alternative. The minority parties like Lib Dems, UKIP and the greens were advocating change to a proportional system but what we ended up with was a choice between 1 un-proportional system and another.

But that's my point. Person A says let's have STV, Person B says let's have a list system
A doesn't like lists and B doesn't like STV, so they come up with AV - which neither of them likes ... and so we stick with the status quo. If the proponents of PR came up with a single system that they all fall behind, we may have another option but they don't.

It's a bit like how the Booker prize can be won by a book that's no-one's favourite or why Oscars go to films that are disliked least.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Once again who says anyone is expecting them to?

I have said on many occasions the Remoaner undemocratic loons seeking to thwart/reverse Brexit are not representative of Remain voters but as you suggest they do have an uncanny resemblance to their Farage/UKIP nemesis. Which amuses me no end ...

Just a tip

I think that if you believe the 'Remoaner undemocratic loons seeking to thwart/reverse Brexit' are the ones to worry about then I think you will be sadly mistaken. It won't be them that force the second vote.

It will be the Tory party's democratically elected representatives of the people. They're the ones who once the deal is finalised, won't go ahead without a second vote .

 

[Half Time Pies]

But that's my point. Person A says let's have STV, Person B says let's have a list system
A doesn't like lists and B doesn't like STV, so they come up with AV - which neither of them likes ... and so we stick with the status quo. If the proponents of PR came up with a single system that they all fall behind, we may have another option but they don't.

It's a bit like how the Booker prize can be won by a book that's no-one's favourite or why Oscars go to films that are disliked least.

Well the Liberal Democrats were advocates of STV so as they were pushing for the referendum as part of the power sharing deal then it would have made sense that this was the proportional alternative offered as an option to the electorate.

 

[astralavi]

Saying that people cannot change their minds or vote on issues (again) would seem to be undemocratic and by definition autocratic

 

[Motogull]

They realised that there's a great big gravy train in getting elected for anything from the local council upwards and wanted a slice of the pie.

But there can't be that many drawing a salary?

I forgot to mention Paul 'Hillsborough' Nutter too.

 

[Gwylan]

Well the Liberal Democrats were advocates of STV so as they were pushing for the referendum as part of the power sharing deal then it would have made sense that this was the proportional alternative offered as an option to the electorate.

It was the Labour Party who recommended AV, IIRC, The point is that there's not a single PR system that people could get behind, if there was, we wouldn't have STV and AV and closed lists and open lists and all the others (I think there are about 8 or 9 systems there).

The Conservatives' official position is to support FPTP and, while it's an official Labour position, there are lots in the party who support it. There must be a bedrock support for FPTP of at least 32% so any alternative system must have the support of pretty much everyone else, just one or two percent of punters sticking with the status quo would mean that there'd be no vote for an alternative system.

That's the whole point - iF STV Is so good, why the need for other systems?

 

[Half Time Pies]

It was the Labour Party who recommended AV, IIRC, The point is that there's not a single PR system that people could get behind, if there was, we wouldn't have STV and AV and closed lists and open lists and all the others (I think there are about 8 or 9 systems there).

The Conservatives' official position is to support FPTP and, while it's an official Labour position, there are lots in the party who support it. There must be a bedrock support for FPTP of at least 32% so any alternative system must have the support of pretty much everyone else, just one or two percent of punters sticking with the status quo would mean that there'd be no vote for an alternative system.

That's the whole point - iF STV Is so good, why the need for other systems?

I dont understand your point, are you saying that because there are other systems that STV can't be any good? That doesn't make sense!

STV is being used successfully in Scotland and Northern Ireland as well as Ireland, Australia and many other countries.

The reason the main parties labour and the conservatives support FPTP is because it serves their interests, it maintains the status quo of them as the 2 dominant parties, it has nothing to do with it being fair, democratic or the best system out there. Brexit has shown that when people are offered a real choice in a referendum they don't always vote the way their political party advocates so I don't think that support from the two main parties would automatically mean that FPTP would win in a vote against a proportional system like STV.

 

[Gwylan]

I dont understand your point, are you saying that because there are other systems that STV can't be any good? That doesn't make sense!

That's not what I'm saying at all. There'll be a large proportion of people voting for FPTP so for another system to get the two-thirds majority that Simster was talking about, it would have to be backed by just about everybody else. But we know that wouldn't be the case, there are eight other systems each with their own adherents.

You're assuming that if someone was a supporter of AV, for example, they'd automatically support STV but I don't believe that would be the case. Yes, most would but you'd only need a small number who wouldn't to scupper any chance of FPTP of being overtaken,

 

[Stato]

Strawmanesque. Who has ever said the minority should be forced to change their mind? All I am doing is pointing out it's a bit undemocratic calling for another go before the will of majority has been enacted in the previous vote (s). The same would apply if we had hypotheyically voted to join the EU and Farage type characters called for another go before we did. Whereas all those on the Brexit threads still complaining about the referendum result now would most likely be first in the queue telling him to respect the democratic vote .... double standards indeed.

In a democracy anyone can call for whatever they like, whenever they like. They will only get it if a majority of elected members are in favour and they would only win a second referendum if the majority of people voted with them. If they won, it would be because the will of enough of the people would have changed. They are not being undemocratic, they are expressing their right to free speech. You have the right not to listen to them, but you don't get to stop them from trying.

Luckily for you, the currently elected government has repeatedly stated that they will not have a second vote and are enacting the actions suggested by the result of the non-binding referendum and subsequent parliamentary vote to start the process to leave. There is little parliamentary support for a second referendum. Members of the two largest parties who may be in favour fear the punishment that could follow at the ballot box. Although our democracy is representative, some elected members have voted against their own beliefs because of the evidence they have of the potential unpopularity of their view among their electorate. This is evidence of democracy in action. The Liberal Democrats and the old leaders of New Labour have in parliamentary terms, very little to lose, so are able to state their real opinions, whilst also playing to their base.

Nobody is being undemocratic, just disagreeing with each other. That is what happens and will continue to happen in a democracy.