UK economy.

[London Irish]

By the way, this is always a good way to unmask any political opportunist that keeps banging on about "reducing the deficit".

Ask them, flat out, are they prepared to support the tax rises do to that - (as with Clinton in the US in the 1990s).

If they say no, then tell them to SHUT UP, because they're not closing my kid's school or privatising my local hospital.

 

[beorhthelm]

No, Keynsianism does work - it teaches us that the time for deficit reduction is in periods of economic prosperity, the presidency of Bill Clinton is the great example of this, this centre-left politician raised taxes "during the good times" that brought in huge revenues and successfully cut the deficit while still expanding Budget spending, while it was the Texan idiot who followed him with his costly wars and tax cuts that blew out the deficit again in the US. You DO NOT reduce deficits in the middle of economic crisis - that will only delay recoveries as we have seen with Osborne and the Eton mess in recent years.

i didnt say Keynsian policies dont work, im saying they dont always. its one of many tools and theories that might be used. it also comes with a bunch of assumptions and political idealogy, its not an automatic fix. Clinton did very well in the US, and Brown started promisingly, but he just kept on spending - increasing budgets were the solution to every single problem in the country, rather than address the how or why things are done. Also, Clinton isnt perfect, remember its his policy of encouraging loose lending rules that directly lead to the sub-prime mortgage crisis.

So why are the coalition still borrowing?

because there is a massive public sector that was created to generate jobs across the country, a largesse from Brown that we'll live with probably forever as it will be near impossible for a single government to ever trim back the bureaucracy and politically insensitive to cull thousands of jobs in places that have little other prospects. one day the economy will have grown large enough to soak it up without further borrowing, but it will be at the expense of real investment to create real economic growth.

 

[Triggaaar]

they haven't reduced the rate they sped it up.

The rate at which our debt is increasing, is falling.

Yeh, can remember you now cheering for those tax rises

It would be weird if you remember that, given that you don't know me. But tax rises aren't the only way to pay off debts - they could have increased spending on public services less than they did.

 

[Beach Hut]

because there is a massive public sector that was created to generate jobs across the country, a largesse from Brown that we'll live with probably forever as it will be near impossible for a single government to ever trim back the bureaucracy and politically insensitive to cull thousands of jobs in places that have little other prospects. one day the economy will have grown large enough to soak it up without further borrowing, but it will be at the expense of real investment to create real economic growth.

You should not post facts like that and also how many more people were on benefits under labour as lefties like to forget this as amnesia kicks in.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

because there is a massive public sector that was created to generate jobs across the country, a largesse from Brown that we'll live with probably forever as it will be near impossible for a single government to ever trim back the bureaucracy and politically insensitive to cull thousands of jobs in places that have little other prospects. one day the economy will have grown large enough to soak it up without further borrowing, but it will be at the expense of real investment to create real economic growth.

What a load of tosh - you are slating Brown for what he did and then using his formula to provide the solution to the debt you doubled.

There is only one way to cut debt and that is to borrow less and tax more - that might be unpalatable to the public but its what was needed to happen. Your coalition cronies are more interested in filling their own pockets with public money ready for when the day of financial reckoning comes.

The Uk has become the most politically retarded nation on earth thanks to economic policies that Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown and Osbourne etc created, followed and maintained.

 

[beorhthelm]

There is only one way to cut debt and that is to borrow less and tax more

thats two ways. you dont have to do both and raising taxes is unhelpful if you want growth. and if you want to borrow less, you have to spend less.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

As stated, we've had the slowest recovery of any G7 nation except Italy - fact. Tories will want everyone to forget their gross mismanagement when our economy virtually flatlined between mid 2010 and end 2012 while our rivals were growing - but people will remember, because they have felt it hard in their living standards. Even the current growth in GDP isn't translating into rises in wages, so it's a recovery for the millionaires and no one else. Unfortunately for the Tories, millionaires don't have enough votes to win elections

This

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

no, theres some of pandering to this view, usualy from angle that more of anything is good, without any insight to what "balance" should be. which i note you evade again. obviously growth in non-service sector is good, as any growth, why is it a means in itself?

Osborne doesnt care where growth comes form as long as it comes, he's made no concreate policy other than on construction to create growth and just left it to the economic cycle.

Evading? Insight? I have said repeatedly in this thread and many previous threads we need to increase manufacturing. This is the rebalance I want. What is it you are missing? And Osborne does consider this, remember his March of the makers speech? There was policy in this

http://m.yorkshirepost.co.uk/busine...ed-aloft-by-the-march-of-the-makers-1-3212344

Left and right have called for rebalancing and less dependency on service and finance.

 

[London Irish]

You should not post facts like that and also how many more people were on benefits under labour as lefties like to forget this as amnesia kicks in.

It's just a random Daily Mail word verbiage generator

 

[London Irish]

because there is a massive public sector that was created to generate jobs across the country, a largesse from Brown that we'll live with probably forever as it will be near impossible for a single government to ever trim back the bureaucracy and politically insensitive to cull thousands of jobs in places that have little other prospects. one day the economy will have grown large enough to soak it up without further borrowing, but it will be at the expense of real investment to create real economic growth.

Beorhthelm, it's not "bureaucracy" that's being cut - it will be real services that people need.

I don't know where you live, but if it's within Brighton like me you will see it's fire engines that guard the safety of our familes that are being cut, not some grey-suited bloke at a desk wrapping himself in red tape:
http://www.brightonandhovenews.org/...-fire-service-cuts-in-brighton-and-hove/30275

Firefighters and fire engines are not "largesse" - as their campaign posters state, it wasn't them that crashed the economy with reckless profiteering

 

[beorhthelm]

Evading? Insight? I have said repeatedly in this thread and many previous threads we need to increase manufacturing. This is the rebalance I want. What is it you are missing?

something concreate on this "rebalanceing" mantra. im all for more manufacturing, but there is already quite alot. though a smaller proportion, there is more manufacturing output than any time before even accounting for inflation. its just other sectors have increase more. what im interested right now is what exactly is this balance supposed to be? another 5%, 10%, 20%? it just seems to have become a cheap cliche to trott out. i'd ask Osborne the same if he logged on to NSC, and i bet he wouldnt have any answer either.

and its funny you mention dependency on "service and finance", because the latter is a subset of the former, and is smaller than manufacturing.

 

[London Irish]

Trig

I'm no labour supporter (no difference in any of them) but they haven't reduced the rate they sped it up. The only thing that saved the UK was not being financially tied to the Euro.

We owe £20,248 for every man, woman and child
That's more than £45,025 for every person in employment
Every household will pay £1,889 this year, just to cover the interest

Fascinating discussion this - I'm assuming CR1 you'd be a critic of the coalition from a slightly different direction than me

I'd say it's a mistake to compare the finances of a modern economy to a household budget. In Britain, we have a vast government bond market (one of the biggest in the world alongside the US) that services our debt payments quite comfortably. People are so desperate to buy UK government bonds that we can flog them off at record low repayment rates - it's actually a very good deal for the UK taxpayer right now. There is no mystery in this - we have a vast financial services industry, pension funds etc that love to buy UK debt because it's safe. There is no panic about our national debt, just one whipped up by the Tory press that don't like spending on our schools and hospitals and other services for the elderly etc.

You are right of course, we should have higher tax rates to bring down deficits over the long term. But there is grim party consensus between Tory and New Labour that does not allow an intelligent conversation in thos country about the tax rates we need. But we should only raise taxes once the economy has properly recovered and people are getting wage rises again - otherwise it will just make ordinary people poorer.

 

[beorhthelm]

Beorhthelm, it's not "bureaucracy" that's being cut - it will be real services that people need.

I don't know where you live, but if it's within Brighton like me you will see it's fire engines that guard the safety of our familes that are being cut, not some grey-suited bloke at a desk wrapping himself in red tape:
http://www.brightonandhovenews.org/...-fire-service-cuts-in-brighton-and-hove/30275

Firefighters and fire engines are not "largesse" - as their campaign posters state, it wasn't them that crashed the economy with reckless profiteering

thats horse crap, a nice deflection of the issue to "oh protect the firefighters". has nothing to do with them. theres a government department that increased its head count 20k since 2001 (i cant recal whcih, home office?), the Cabinet office was virtually non existant in 1997 now has a £2.1bn budget and theres a charity fund of about £12Bn thats dolled out to those that apply - half of all charity funding now is coming from tax payers. and thats not all Marie Currie, that think tanks and their ilk spaffing out papers on the tax payer. the civil services and quangos were massivly expanded and every problem in the country was addressed with "spend more", which equated to funding for more strategy directors, administrators, middle managers and suport staff. the public sector is ridiculously inefficient in ratios of those working on provideing services with backend staffing, and fudge productivity through office workflows not real delivery.

 

[Lawro's Lip]

Exactly! Which is why it's so scandalous that Blair/Brown weren't paying off the debt while the going was so good.

The Tory leadership were not keen to do this either when they pledged to match Labour's spending plan for two years in September 2007.

 

[Beach Hut]

It's just a random Daily Mail word verbiage generator

Which is probably who you write for

 

[Chicken Runner61]

Fascinating discussion this - I'm assuming CR1 you'd be a critic of the coalition from a slightly different direction than me

I'd say it's a mistake to compare the finances of a modern economy to a household budget. In Britain, we have a vast government bond market (one of the biggest in the world alongside the US) that services our debt payments quite comfortably. People are so desperate to buy UK government bonds that we can flog them off at record low repayment rates - it's actually a very good deal for the UK taxpayer right now. There is no mystery in this - we have a vast financial services industry, pension funds etc that love to buy UK debt because it's safe. There is no panic about our national debt, just one whipped up by the Tory press that don't like spending on our schools and hospitals and other services for the elderly etc.

You are right of course, we should have higher tax rates to bring down deficits over the long term. But there is grim party consensus between Tory and New Labour that does not allow an intelligent conversation in thos country about the tax rates we need. But we should only raise taxes once the economy has properly recovered and people are getting wage rises again - otherwise it will just make ordinary people poorer.

There's no panic atm about our debt because they are hoping our growth will service it - Its (false) low interest rates that stopped domestic financial meltdown, Its the rush of foreign money to the UK who see it as a safe haven. The banks are rebuilding their business at the expense of the poor by skimming overdraft charges and reducing savers rates and high loan charges for anyone that needs to borrow.

Not one party has any plan, strategy or idea about what will happen economically in 5 years time, they are more interested in trying to win votes on immigration, schools and nursery places because they know they will just blame the other party if the economy fails.

No wonder people are so disillusioned with politics -no one is offering anything different save ukip who are blaming Europe for the mess.

If the bond market collapses we will be stuffed. Its not the people on benefits being screwed its the workers on low wages, we have a minimum wage and benefits system that allows large companies to thrive by destroying jobs in medium sized businesses and exporting the profits and tax they would have paid off shore.

Any sane unbiased person can see that politics has been reduced to choosing a milkshake flavour made from the same basic crap ingredients . Sure people used to vote for the party that would best serve their life aims and aspirations and you always had a swinging vote that went with the trend or opposite trend for whatever reason suited them but there were differences in the parties on every aspect especially economics, employment , health and immigration but IMO people like Beorhthelm, Beachy and you are deluding yourselves if you can see any difference between what Labour would have done and what the coalition have done in the past 3 years.

And back to the economy, each party is trying to claim some sort of praise for the UK's survival but across the globe the winners have been the rich who have grabbed assets and power home and abroad whilst the middle and lower classes of the world have fought each other to become either landlord or servant to each other but both slaves to the system. The Uk are winners of what and for how long?

None of the parties would have done anything different because none of the really knew what to do. More worryingly is that none of them know what to do next. The Uk will now do whatever the USA or China wants us to do, if ukip pull us out of Europe thats even more likely we will be controlled by them. If we stay in Europe the Germans will tell us what to do. We have lost economic power to all of them.

Our foreign policy is whatever the US tells us it is and our military stance is with whoever we sell weapons to. We used to be a nation of shopkeepers, Thatcher and Blair turned us into a nation of shelf fillers.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

something concreate on this "rebalanceing" mantra. im all for more manufacturing, but there is already quite alot. though a smaller proportion, there is more manufacturing output than any time before even accounting for inflation. its just other sectors have increase more. what im interested right now is what exactly is this balance supposed to be? another 5%, 10%, 20%? it just seems to have become a cheap cliche to trott out. i'd ask Osborne the same if he logged on to NSC, and i bet he wouldnt have any answer either.

and its funny you mention dependency on "service and finance", because the latter is a subset of the former, and is smaller than manufacturing.

Just like I said. He doesn't have a clue what the service sector is made up of.

 

[London Irish]

thats horse crap, a nice deflection of the issue to "oh protect the firefighters"

Erm... firefighters jobs are being cut in Brighton - that's a fact not a deflection. And a lot of other services for vulnerable people in this city too. But I guess cognitive dissonance time for you, you can't deal with that so prefer to froth at the mouth over your ideological hatred of the public sector.

 

[London Irish]

There's no panic atm about our debt because they are hoping our growth will service it - Its (false) low interest rates that stopped domestic financial meltdown, Its the rush of foreign money to the UK who see it as a safe haven. If the bond market collapses we will be stuffed

The rate for repayment of British government bonds are not set by the government of the Bank of England or any other government institution but the international capital markets, these are market rates. The buyers are not mainly foreign money but mainly domestic financial institutions. There is not a single sane financial commentator who says there is any risk whatsover to the UK gilt market. I share a lot of your disillusionment with our political system and the elites that control it for their own benefit, but you are barking up the wrong tree on this UK debt/deficit issue. We remain a very rich and powerful country - it's just the wealth gets monopolised by an ever greedier system of elites here.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

The rate for repayment of British government bonds are not set by the government of the Bank of England or any other government institution but the international capital markets, these are market rates. The buyers are not mainly foreign money but mainly domestic financial institutions. There is not a single sane financial commentator who says there is any risk whatsover to the UK gilt market. I share a lot of your disillusionment with our political system and the elites that control it for their own benefit, but you are barking up the wrong tree on this UK debt/deficit issue. We remain a very rich and powerful country - it's just the wealth gets monopolised by an ever greedier system of elites here.

You are out of date - that changed from 2003

Although the majority of gilts are held by British institutions, The amounts held overseas have risen sharply since 2003. Just over 35% of our national debt is owed to foreign governments and investors. We're relying on the confidence of foreign investors to keep our own country afloat. Your domestic financial institutions held about 39% a few years ago