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Trump



Greg Bobkin

Silver Seagull
May 22, 2012
16,027
You're saying that never in the history of man there has been a conspiracy? Not on one occasion did it happen that two or more people secretly planned to do something illegal?

Er, no, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying – and I think you KNOW what I'm saying – that these 'mainstream' conspiracy theories (the earth is flat, pizzagate, stolen election, Elvis/JFK are still alive, etc, etc, etc) are exactly that. Theories. Ideas that never see the light of day and have no factual evidence behind them and are never proven (or disproven, to be fair, but that's because most are so batshit mental).
 




Greg Bobkin

Silver Seagull
May 22, 2012
16,027
The laptop is true, the evidence is all out there for anyone who can bothered to look it up.

So the laptop exists. Right. Now what?
 


bhafc99

Well-known member
Oct 14, 2003
7,455
Dubai
Sure "Hunter's laptop" may exist/be true. And sure the guy may use drugs and prostitutes, and have done some iffy business deals trading off his father's name.

But...so what, really?

Especially compared to Trump.

It's kind of like having one partner in a marriage who serially cheats, lies, steals and abuses on their partner. And when you confront them, their defence is "yeah, but your cousin leaves the toilet seat up all the time, so there."
 


Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
Er, no, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying – and I think you KNOW what I'm saying – that these 'mainstream' conspiracy theories (the earth is flat, pizzagate, stolen election, Elvis/JFK are still alive, etc, etc, etc) are exactly that. Theories. Ideas that never see the light of day and have no factual evidence behind them and are never proven (or disproven, to be fair, but that's because most are so batshit mental).

Conspiracy theories are never allowed to be true, because once proven, those formerly referring to it as "crazy conspiracy theories" swiftly change their stance to it being common knowledge all along.

As a conspiracy theorist (or to use a different phrase; someone who believes that organisations sometimes collaborate to withhold or falsify information) for 15 years, I was there to see how rapidly it happens.

Conspiracy theorist in 2012: I think US government agencies are gathering all our data, recording all our phone calls, have access to all our communication, and got secret deals with every major computer manufacturer to build in backdoor access to guarantee that the information can always be gathered and collected. Indeed, mass surveillance. Hell, they've even sent satellites to space just to spy on us!
All is well and exactly what it looks like theorist in 2012: lololol you David Icke tinfoil hat idiot how could they POSSIBLY get all these corporations to collaborate lolol and keeping it secret for years lololol bet you read that on a source that doesnt even have a dot com domain, facepalm
Edward Snowden in 2013: *reveals that US government agencies are gathering all our data, recording all our phone calls, have access to all our communication, and got secret deals with every major computer manufacturer to build in backdoor access to guarantee that the information can always be gathered and collected. Indeed, mass surveillance. Hell, they've even sent satellites to space just to spy on us!*
Conspiracy theorist in 2013: So...
All is well and exactly what it looks like theorist in 2012: *coughs* Well... we all knew it all along :whistle:
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
56,069
Faversham
Amazing? Yes, I agree.

Mark Zuckerberg admitted in an interview that he was approached by the FBI to suppress the Hunter Biden laptop story, so they did. Twitter banned the New York Post from their account because they were promoting the story. Google programmed their search engines to hide it. The FBI sat on the story, as verified by numerous whistleblowers. The DOJ is now just a political arm of the Democratic Party.

But yet you think the American government system is far superior to your own? Scary shit, that…

The only thing true in this story is that Giuliani spent several years trying to find something on Hunter's laptop to incriminate Biden, but failed. There is little doubt the laptop was Hunter's (though no certainty), and if there had been anything damaging on it, a five minute job would have provided the evidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Biden_laptop_controversy

In other words a fishing expedition using all the powers available to the Trump gang, and still no fish.

At least when the republicans went after Clinton's financial impropriety in a long and expensive fishing exercise they did eventually find a dress with a bit of spunk on it. :shrug:
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
56,069
Faversham
Conspiracy theories are never allowed to be true, because once proven, those formerly referring to it as "crazy conspiracy theories" swiftly change their stance to it being common knowledge all along.

As a conspiracy theorist (or to use a different phrase; someone who believes that organisations sometimes collaborate to withhold or falsify information) for 15 years, I was there to see how rapidly it happens.

Conspiracy theorist in 2012: I think US government agencies are gathering all our data, recording all our phone calls, have access to all our communication, and got secret deals with every major computer manufacturer to build in backdoor access to guarantee that the information can always be gathered and collected. Indeed, mass surveillance. Hell, they've even sent satellites to space just to spy on us!
All is well and exactly what it looks like theorist in 2012: lololol you David Icke tinfoil hat idiot how could they POSSIBLY get all these corporations to collaborate lolol and keeping it secret for years lololol bet you read that on a source that doesnt even have a dot com domain, facepalm
Edward Snowden in 2013: *reveals that US government agencies are gathering all our data, recording all our phone calls, have access to all our communication, and got secret deals with every major computer manufacturer to build in backdoor access to guarantee that the information can always be gathered and collected. Indeed, mass surveillance. Hell, they've even sent satellites to space just to spy on us!*
Conspiracy theorist in 2013: So...
All is well and exactly what it looks like theorist in 2012: *coughs* Well... we all knew it all along :whistle:

Snowden. An unstable pro-gun man who was given far too much access to information he didn't understand. His biggest supporters? Trump (for a while) and currently Putin.

If America was so clever, and so powerful, and had all our data all the time, they would have stopped Snowden, one of their own. Unless allowing him to release all these 'facts' was part of the conspiracy run by the Power Elite!

:facepalm:

My main worry about America is they don't know enough, are blinkered in their outlook, don't learn quickly enough from mistakes, and spend too much time and effort playing to their own crowd.

It is also clear that the surge of support among noisy and active young people for the likes of Snowden, Assange and Trump simply degrades the message, the important message that has been pivotal throughout the ages, that we should be scrutinizing our leaders and systems more closely.

It is quite clear that anything supported by Trump or Putin is something that will distract the world from what Trump and Putin are working towards - which is primarily a limitless supply of the materials that feed their greed and addictions - money, steroids, hookers.....and more money.

It is a shame that so much of the middle of our populace is now fatigued, bored and disillusioned by not just the showmen/liars like Johnson, but also the honest decent and dull people who want to make the world a better place, thanks to the shameless and ruthless power grabbing by the likes of Trump and Putin, and the support given to this, intentionally and unintentionally, by iconoclasts like Snowden and Assange (and David Ike if you want to rope him in). It is not a conspiracy, just opportunism by the carpet-bagging charlatans we have voted into power. With lubrication from tin-foilers gobbing off all over the internet including here on a football forum.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
56,069
Faversham
It has happened multiple times in the past, so why couldn't it happen again? It doesn't take you that many months of studying how intelligence services operate and has operated in the past to find multiple examples of agencies and media companies agreeing and working together, as proven by declassified or revealed documents, autobiographies by people involved, and whistleblowers. If you want, I can give you multiple examples.



It is also confirmation bias to always believe in what the majority & media (they strangely always go together, almost as if there's some psychological aspect involved in it...) believe without doing a proper investigation of the subject and then make your own conclusions out of that.

A proper investigation using material that, yet again, you will say you have special access to, information sources that you cannot and will not share? If the reader does not have access to the source material sufficiently that he/she can measure its provenance, the information is valueless.

Before you whatbout all the stuff in the mainstream media that I presumably accept without checking, well, just like in engineering, if you take some ideas and use them to make a machine, if the machine works the ideas may well be correct. My tacit acceptance of millions of pieces of information maps to predictions and outcomes that suggest that my acceptance is generally appropriate.

There is a chance, of course, that I will wake up tomorrow to find that my house is in fact made of marzipan, my car has rusted away, and that I have been hallucinating my job and family owing to the LSD that has been slipped into my drinking water for the last 64 years. It is possible.

So we have the possible and the probable. I prefer to operate based on assumptions that best fit my assessment of probable. My assumptions are not always correct (one elephant in the room - the difference in my welfare under a labour versus tory government has not been as monumentally huge as I sometimes like to imagine). However....there is no evidence that I would be able to function better in this world by accepting - and acting upon - an argument that everything I hold to be true is a lie, all politicians are part of a global conspiracy, etc. etc. In 64 years, as a trained scientist, I have simply not been presented with remotely anywhere near enough evidence to explore this systematically.

But yes, I do have confirmation bias. I have seen and done thousands, hundred of thousands of things, and they map quite well (not perfectly, but quite well) to my understanding of how the world appears to work, the goals of people and organizations, etc. Occam's razor is a very useful tool.

It is fun to believe in conspiracies, though. Likewise the supernatural. And extraterrestrial life. Especially when listening to certain music and taking certain drugs. I loved all that when I was a much younger man. It is great fun. But it isn't.........real :shrug:
 


Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
Snowden. An unstable pro-gun man who was given far too much access to information he didn't understand. His biggest supporters? Trump (for a while) and currently Putin.

If America was so clever, and so powerful, and had all our data all the time, they would have stopped Snowden, one of their own. Unless allowing him to release all these 'facts' was part of the conspiracy run by the Power Elite!

:facepalm:

My main worry about America is they don't know enough, are blinkered in their outlook, don't learn quickly enough from mistakes, and spend too much time and effort playing to their own crowd.

It is also clear that the surge of support among noisy and active young people for the likes of Snowden, Assange and Trump simply degrades the message, the important message that has been pivotal throughout the ages, that we should be scrutinizing our leaders and systems more closely.

It is quite clear that anything supported by Trump or Putin is something that will distract the world from what Trump and Putin are working towards - which is primarily a limitless supply of the materials that feed their greed and addictions - money, steroids, hookers.....and more money.

It is a shame that so much of the middle of our populace is now fatigued, bored and disillusioned by not just the showmen/liars like Johnson, but also the honest decent and dull people who want to make the world a better place, thanks to the shameless and ruthless power grabbing by the likes of Trump and Putin, and the support given to this, intentionally and unintentionally, by iconoclasts like Snowden and Assange (and David Ike if you want to rope him in). It is not a conspiracy, just opportunism by the carpet-bagging charlatans we have voted into power. With lubrication from tin-foilers gobbing off all over the internet including here on a football forum.

Starting off with some guilt by association and then ignoring all the information available.

Then followed by a tirade of nothing - no facts, no arguments, just lose terms, whataboutery in a modernized Godwins law-way and insults. A poorly hidden anger that not everyone shares the perspective you think is objective, but which in reality is very subjective.

Classic HWT coping with cognitive dissonance.

No doubt you, like any populist, will get some applauses from the similar minded. Enjoy them. It doesn't change a thing, unfortunately.
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
56,069
Faversham
Starting off with some guilt by association and then ignoring all the information available.

Then followed by a tirade of nothing - no facts, no arguments, just lose terms, whataboutery in a modernized Godwins law-way and insults. A poorly hidden anger that not everyone shares the perspective you think is objective, but which in reality is very subjective.

Classic HWT coping with cognitive dissonance.

No doubt you, like any populist, will get some applauses from the similar minded. Enjoy them. It doesn't change a thing, unfortunately.

Boo!

:lolol:
 










Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
A proper investigation using material that, yet again, you will say you have special access to, information sources that you cannot and will not share? If the reader does not have access to the source material sufficiently that he/she can measure its provenance, the information is valueless.

Before you whatbout all the stuff in the mainstream media that I presumably accept without checking, well, just like in engineering, if you take some ideas and use them to make a machine, if the machine works the ideas may well be correct. My tacit acceptance of millions of pieces of information maps to predictions and outcomes that suggest that my acceptance is generally appropriate.

There is a chance, of course, that I will wake up tomorrow to find that my house is in fact made of marzipan, my car has rusted away, and that I have been hallucinating my job and family owing to the LSD that has been slipped into my drinking water for the last 64 years. It is possible.

So we have the possible and the probable. I prefer to operate based on assumptions that best fit my assessment of probable. My assumptions are not always correct (one elephant in the room - the difference in my welfare under a labour versus tory government has not been as monumentally huge as I sometimes like to imagine). However....there is no evidence that I would be able to function better in this world by accepting - and acting upon - an argument that everything I hold to be true is a lie, all politicians are part of a global conspiracy, etc. etc. In 64 years, as a trained scientist, I have simply not been presented with remotely anywhere near enough evidence to explore this systematically.

But yes, I do have confirmation bias. I have seen and done thousands, hundred of thousands of things, and they map quite well (not perfectly, but quite well) to my understanding of how the world appears to work, the goals of people and organizations, etc. Occam's razor is a very useful tool.

It is fun to believe in conspiracies, though. Likewise the supernatural. And extraterrestrial life. Especially when listening to certain music and taking certain drugs. I loved all that when I was a much younger man. It is great fun. But it isn't.........real :shrug:

The "reader" is usually too comfortable, unwilling and too self-assured of their own position to read extensive pieces that challenges their own pre-set ideas. If you're asking me to provide sources regarding Hunter Bidens laptop, I can't do that because that specific subject is not one I have investigated myself.

Before you whatbout some of the stuff in the non-mainstream media that I accept through thoroughly researching, well, just like in engineering, if you take some ideas and use them to make a machine, if the machine works the ideas may well be correct. My tacit acceptance of millions of pieces of information maps to predictions and outcomes that suggest that my acceptance is generally appropriate.


We have the possible and then other possibilities. I prefer to operate based on assumptions that best fit my assessment of probable. My assumptions are not always correct (Graham Potter moved to Chelsea).

However....there is no evidence that I would be able to function better in this world by accepting - and acting upon - an argument that everything I hold to be true is a lie, all politicians are part of a global conspiracy, etc. etc, but I still believe in those things because to understand reality I have to push myself aside from the facts I'm encountering. In 33 years, as an information-obsessed autodidact, I have not been presented with anything useful, instead forcing myself to read what others won't read, to remember what others will forget, to think in ways society has not encouraged me to think.

I have seen and done thousands, hundred of thousands of things, and they map quite well (not perfectly, but quite well) to my understanding of how the world appears to work, the goals of people and organizations, etc.

It is comfy to believe in majority beliefs, though. Likewise in the promises of politicians and the 'truths' of the media conglomerates. And the rules and laws and the idea that we live in the best of possible worlds. Especially when you're Rain Man light.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
56,069
Faversham
The "reader" is usually too comfortable, unwilling and too self-assured of their own position to read extensive pieces that challenges their own pre-set ideas. If you're asking me to provide sources regarding Hunter Bidens laptop, I can't do that because that specific subject is not one I have investigated myself.

Before you whatbout some of the stuff in the non-mainstream media that I accept through thoroughly researching, well, just like in engineering, if you take some ideas and use them to make a machine, if the machine works the ideas may well be correct. My tacit acceptance of millions of pieces of information maps to predictions and outcomes that suggest that my acceptance is generally appropriate.


We have the possible and then other possibilities. I prefer to operate based on assumptions that best fit my assessment of probable. My assumptions are not always correct (Graham Potter moved to Chelsea).

However....there is no evidence that I would be able to function better in this world by accepting - and acting upon - an argument that everything I hold to be true is a lie, all politicians are part of a global conspiracy, etc. etc, but I still believe in those things because to understand reality I have to push myself aside from the facts I'm encountering. In 33 years, as an information-obsessed autodidact, I have not been presented with anything useful, instead forcing myself to read what others won't read, to remember what others will forget, to think in ways society has not encouraged me to think.

I have seen and done thousands, hundred of thousands of things, and they map quite well (not perfectly, but quite well) to my understanding of how the world appears to work, the goals of people and organizations, etc.

It is comfy to believe in majority beliefs, though. Likewise in the promises of politicians and the 'truths' of the media conglomerates. And the rules and laws and the idea that we live in the best of possible worlds. Especially when you're Rain Man light.

Excellent and clever reply :thumbsup:
 








Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,827
Uffern
There is little doubt the laptop was Hunter's (though no certainty)

There's actually some doubt that it was his (although it is probable)

What there is quite a lot of doubt about is whether the so-called smoking gun emails are his or were part of a Russian smear operation.

The reason why Facebook and Twitter had a (temporary) ban on the story was not because it was embarrassing to Biden but because the information was unreliable.

I think we can take it the saner reaches of the GOP know that the Biden laptop story is a non-starter as a weapon that can be used as there's so much doubt about the authenticity of the material. Sadly, there are some wilder elements around who will believe any old nonsense.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
56,069
Faversham
I would pay good money to watch a series of Big Brother where the only two housemates are Swanny and HWT.

:lolol:

In my job I have had, on occasions, the chance to work with people who have a completely different life take to me, a different way of operating, etc. This has created some excellent collaborations, often triggered by chance, some of which have resulted in research articles (and, more recently, the invention of a new medicine that me and my colleagues have patented, and that later today, we will be exploring next stage development in a Teams chat). It has crossed my mind that it might be interesting to work with Swanny on some sort of project. My suspicion, however, is we are probably both too fickle ???
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
56,069
Faversham
There's actually some doubt that it was his (although it is probable)

What there is quite a lot of doubt about is whether the so-called smoking gun emails are his or were part of a Russian smear operation.

The reason why Facebook and Twitter had a (temporary) ban on the story was not because it was embarrassing to Biden but because the information was unreliable.

I think we can take it the saner reaches of the GOP know that the Biden laptop story is a non-starter as a weapon that can be used as there's so much doubt about the authenticity of the material. Sadly, there are some wilder elements around who will believe any old nonsense.

That was what I meant, in my somewhat truncated and badly written quip :thumbsup:
 


Badger Boy

Mr Badger
Jan 28, 2016
3,658
316 pages in...have we all agreed that Trump is a vile scumbag yet?

I think most people have, but there are still some loyalists who would argue the sun is purple if Trump suggested it was. It's incredible how angry people are and how desperate they are to express it. Trump really did hit upon something with his campaigning, and those people have given him tens of millions of Dollars for literally no reason at all in order to keep the "movement" going. Incredible.
 


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