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Tyrone Biggums

Tyrone Biggums

Well-known member
Jun 25, 2006
13,498
Geelong, Australia
Stato said:
I don't think you do 'fully agree with him' and he definitely wasn't 'right in that case'. He said that he thought heroes are people who don't get captured, not that the Vietnam war was in any way illegitimate, or that heroes don't murder innocents.

His was a cheap jibe for personal reasons made because of his own ego, not because of any moral or ideological stance. He later apologised for the crack, probably when someone explained to him that McCain's perceived heroism happened after he was captured. McCain had the opportunity to get away from his imprisonment and torture early because his captors found that he was the son of an admiral. He refused this offer, taking the view that his family connection should not give him personal protection that was not available to his colleagues. Ironically, Trump took advantage of his own family connections to avoid conscription. He didn't disagree with the war, he just protected himself. Personally I wouldn't criticise him for that. I am sure that many of us would have done the same. I am not sure that many would have done the same as McCain. For me, regardless of who he became, (and I should mention that Trump didn't refer to the latter at all in his remarks), his sacrifice was an act of heroism. I don't think you would disagree with this, but are just trying to find a way of supporting Trump in the dispute for political reasons.
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Plenty of people make sacrifices in wars.

If a Viet Cong soldier saved a bunch of communists through and act of heroism will they be considered a war hero by the people who fawn over McCain? Doubt it.

So once again we see the hypocrisy and double standards of those who oppose Trump so fervently.

McCain placed himself in the situation he did because he willingly signed up to go kill people. He definitely only became a hero because he was shot down trying to do so.

Do we still consider people heroes if they are racist warmongers?
 




aolstudios

aolstudios

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2011
5,266
brighton
Stato said:
I don't think you do 'fully agree with him' and he definitely wasn't 'right in that case'. He said that he thought heroes are people who don't get captured, not that the Vietnam war was in any way illegitimate, or that heroes don't murder innocents.

His was a cheap jibe for personal reasons made because of his own ego, not because of any moral or ideological stance. He later apologised for the crack, probably when someone explained to him that McCain's perceived heroism happened after he was captured. McCain had the opportunity to get away from his imprisonment and torture early because his captors found that he was the son of an admiral. He refused this offer, taking the view that his family connection should not give him personal protection that was not available to his colleagues. Ironically, Trump took advantage of his own family connections to avoid conscription. He didn't disagree with the war, he just protected himself. Personally I wouldn't criticise him for that. I am sure that many of us would have done the same. I am not sure that many would have done the same as McCain. For me, regardless of who he became, (and I should mention that Trump didn't refer to the latter at all in his remarks), his sacrifice was an act of heroism. I don't think you would disagree with this, but are just trying to find a way of supporting Trump in the dispute for political reasons.
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This. All of it.
Bloke's a ****ing joke
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,002
Tyrone Biggums said:
Do we still consider people heroes if they are racist warmongers?
Click to expand...

is this a serious question?

it doesn't matter what you think of the cause, servicemen are to be treated as heroes (dishonorable actions aside) and venerated by every patriot, led by the Commander in Chief. maintaining a personal vendetta and harrumphing like a child when questioned about McCain will have done Trump immeasurable damage.
 


Stato

Stato

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2011
7,355
Tyrone Biggums said:
Plenty of people make sacrifices in wars.

If a Viet Cong soldier saved a bunch of communists through and act of heroism will they be considered a war hero by the people who fawn over McCain? Doubt it.

So once again we see the hypocrisy and double standards of those who oppose Trump so fervently.

McCain placed himself in the situation he did because he willingly signed up to go kill people. He definitely only became a hero because he was shot down trying to do so.

Do we still consider people heroes if they are racist warmongers?
Click to expand...

You ask some valid questions about the perception of heroism in war and the subjective viewpoint of each side, but my point was that Trump did not. He didn't say any of that. He doesn't think any of that. If Bob Woodward's latest book is to be believed, he has no compunction in ordering assassinations. He doesn't seem to want to put himself in any physical jeopardy though.

In some ways Trump seems to act as a Chauncey Gardner for anybody who holds anti-establishment views. The fact that his pronouncements are mostly incomprehensible means that the audience can choose to interpret his meaning in any way that suits them. I can understand the urge to want the status quo disrupted and it is certainly true that America has large sections of society that have been let down by its recent politics.

However, truth has to be our first concern and it bothers me that people are happy to overlook evident truths for political expediency. You have indicated that one reason you choose to take Trump's side against McCain is that McCain was a racist. This is John McCain during his run for president speaking with the type of people that Trump persuaded to vote for him by racial scare tactics and talk of banning Muslims and walling out Mexicans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrnRU3ocIH4

Evidential truths are what we have to hang on to.
 


J

Jim D

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2003
5,267
Worthing
Stato said:
.......Ironically, Trump took advantage of his own family connections to avoid conscription. He didn't disagree with the war, he just protected himself. Personally I wouldn't criticise him for that. I am sure that many of us would have done the same. I am not sure that many would have done the same as McCain. For me, regardless of who he became, (and I should mention that Trump didn't refer to the latter at all in his remarks), his sacrifice was an act of heroism. I don't think you would disagree with this, but are just trying to find a way of supporting Trump in the dispute for political reasons.
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GW Bush did the same. 'Fortunate Son' is about him.
 




G

Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,823
Uffern
Stato said:
You have indicated that one reason you choose to take Trump's side against McCain is that McCain was a racist. This is John McCain during his run for president speaking with the type of people that Trump persuaded to vote for him by racial scare tactics and talk of banning Muslims and walling out Mexicans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrnRU3ocIH4
Click to expand...

Hmm ..

Woman: "I'm scared of Obama ... he's an Arab"
McCain: "No, he's not ma'am, he's a decent family man"

So McCain thinks Arabs can't be decent family men, but he's not racist ???
 




Blue Valkyrie

Blue Valkyrie

Not seen such Bravery!
Sep 1, 2012
32,165
Valhalla
Gwylan said:
Hmm ..

Woman: "I'm scared of Obama ... he's an Arab"
McCain: "No, he's not ma'am, he's a decent family man"

So McCain thinks Arabs can't be decent family men, but he's not racist ???
Click to expand...
Clearly not what he was saying.
 




Stato

Stato

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2011
7,355
Gwylan said:
Hmm ..

Woman: "I'm scared of Obama ... he's an Arab"
McCain: "No, he's not ma'am, he's a decent family man"

So McCain thinks Arabs can't be decent family men, but he's not racist ???
Click to expand...

It seems slightly churlish to pull him up on a turn of phrase, when he is actually fronting up to racist lies and scaremongering. It would have been easy for him not to challenge her. Many other Republican candidates wouldn't have.
 


G

Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,823
Uffern
Stato said:
It seems slightly churlish to pull him up on a turn of phrase, when he is actually fronting up to racist lies and scaremongering. It would have been easy for him not to challenge her. Many other Republican candidates wouldn't have.
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I'm not supporting Tyrone's assertion in any way but it wouldn't have been a clip I'd have used to show that he wasn't a racist - it's very ambiguous
 


















Stat Brother

Stat Brother

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
73,888
West west west Sussex
Thank god Trump can't pronounce anonymous, if he could we wouldn't have this:-

[tweet]1037886447037112321[/tweet]
 








Johnny RoastBeef

Johnny RoastBeef

These aren't the players you're looking for.
Jan 11, 2016
3,470
For any on here with pro Trump tendencies, check out the documentary 'Active Measures' and then come back and let us know if you still feel the same.

IMDB: Active Measures.
 


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