[Albion] Training the forward group separately

[Guinness Boy]

Since we're talking about Potter and also about the legends night at the Theatre Royal, let's get NSC's opinion on this.

One of the famous things about the Potter era was that we never quite matched our xG with real goals. There were some good debates on here about whether you could specifically coach forward play and particularly finishing.

Zamora said on Monday that you can. In fact the reason Bristol Rovers had a succession of top scorers, not just BZ but also players like Cureton was that Holloway worked the forwards separately and all they did was movement and finishing. The effect, according to BZ, was that they went into games full of confidence when it came to finishing, which became second nature.

So - if you CAN coach finishing, should you? And, if so, to what level?

Obviously we're talking about 20 years ago and a lower division side. Is football so technical these days that the whole group has to work together on tactics at all times? Could the forwards be separated most of the time? Or, if not, what's the balance?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Since we're talking about Potter and also about the legends night at the Theatre Royal, let's get NSC's opinion on this.

One of the famous things about the Potter era was that we never quite matched our xG with real goals. There were some good debates on here about whether you could specifically coach forward play and particularly finishing.

Zamora said on Monday that you can. In fact the reason Bristol Rovers had a succession of top scorers, not just BZ but also players like Cureton was that Holloway worked the forwards separately and all they did was movement and finishing. The effect, according to BZ, was that they went into games full of confidence when it came to finishing, which became second nature.

So - if you CAN coach finishing, should you? And, if so, to what level?

Obviously we're talking about 20 years ago and a lower division side. Is football so technical these days that the whole group has to work together on tactics at all times? Could the forwards be separated most of the time? Or, if not, what's the balance?

Sounds like the main thing Holloway worked on was the players confidence. The movement and finishing would have had to be there to begin with, and would have been largely instinctive

 

[AmexRuislip]

Since we're talking about Potter and also about the legends night at the Theatre Royal, let's get NSC's opinion on this.

One of the famous things about the Potter era was that we never quite matched our xG with real goals. There were some good debates on here about whether you could specifically coach forward play and particularly finishing.

Zamora said on Monday that you can. In fact the reason Bristol Rovers had a succession of top scorers, not just BZ but also players like Cureton was that Holloway worked the forwards separately and all they did was movement and finishing. The effect, according to BZ, was that they went into games full of confidence when it came to finishing, which became second nature.

So - if you CAN coach finishing, should you? And, if so, to what level?

Obviously we're talking about 20 years ago and a lower division side. Is football so technical these days that the whole group has to work together on tactics at all times? Could the forwards be separated most of the time? Or, if not, what's the balance?

How about sending our forwards to RADA

 

[GT49er]

Do we know for definite if Potter did have separate training for the forward or not?

I can certainly imagine some separate specific training sessions for the forwards would be useful - and for the defence too. Not all the time though - football is very much an all involved all the time game these days, everybody involved in the build up and the tactics.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Well.

Forwards at any club will practice shooting and finishing for hours on end anyway. Movement is a little different, much more based on an instinctive understanding of probability of you getting a chance

What I reckon forwards should do, more than any other position is work on the psychological side. How to stop that adrenaline rush when through on goal, how to keep that heart rate in check while you’re lining up a shot. I think the ability to retain composure is much more important to strikers than it is to other positions, and that’s why there are very few young goalscorers and loads who score most of their goals well into their late 20s and 30s.

 

[Braggfan]

Well.

Forwards at any club will practice shooting and finishing for hours on end anyway. Movement is a little different, much more based on an instinctive understanding of probability of you getting a chance

What I reckon forwards should do, more than any other position is work on the psychological side. How to stop that adrenaline rush when through on goal, how to keep that heart rate in check while you’re lining up a shot. I think the ability to retain composure is much more important to strikers than it is to other positions, and that’s why there are very few young goalscorers and loads who score most of their goals well into their late 20s and 30s.

I think movement is something that can be coached. Some players will insitinctively be better at it, but I think there's a level of coaching as to what area's they need to be hitting, and how they should be turning markers etc. But probably the instinctive part is how they time that movement.

 

[Marshy]

Sounds like the main thing Holloway worked on was the players confidence. The movement and finishing would have had to be there to begin with, and would have been largely instinctive

Nope, they got taught movement, and the subtleties of forward play. Dark arts the lot. Sounded very very beneficial to me

We should have Murray and Zamora in a couple of days a week in my opinion to work with our forwards

Evan and Mahoney specifically would benefit hugely,

 

[BNthree]

Goalies have lots of specialist training away from the rest of the squad so why not forwards too?

 

[Baldseagull]

Depends on how you play I guess.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Goalies have lots of specialist training away from the rest of the squad so why not forwards too?

Don't forget we had a specialist attacking coach until fairly recently - Bruno

 

[Guinness Boy]

Do we know for definite if Potter did have separate training for the forward or not?

I can certainly imagine some separate specific training sessions for the forwards would be useful - and for the defence too. Not all the time though - football is very much an all involved all the time game these days, everybody involved in the build up and the tactics.

According to some on NSC at the time it's not a skill you can coach. According to others Bruno was the forwards coach. So maybe you can if you don't use a defender with 13 career goals to his name.

 

[BNthree]

According to some on NSC at the time it's not a skill you can coach. According to others Bruno was the forwards coach. So maybe you can if you don't use a defender with 13 career goals to his name.

That came from the club website so not just idle speculation.

 

[beorhthelm]

can you? of course.

does it work with the fluid passing and high press? not sure. who are the forwards, the front 2, wingers, attacking mid? with wingbacks they're likely hp there too.

might be this is a flaw in Potter's approach, all about build up and not enough on finishing, regardless of a coach. see also Chelsea.

 

[Han Solo]

Since we're talking about Potter and also about the legends night at the Theatre Royal, let's get NSC's opinion on this.

One of the famous things about the Potter era was that we never quite matched our xG with real goals. There were some good debates on here about whether you could specifically coach forward play and particularly finishing.

Zamora said on Monday that you can. In fact the reason Bristol Rovers had a succession of top scorers, not just BZ but also players like Cureton was that Holloway worked the forwards separately and all they did was movement and finishing. The effect, according to BZ, was that they went into games full of confidence when it came to finishing, which became second nature.

So - if you CAN coach finishing, should you? And, if so, to what level?

Obviously we're talking about 20 years ago and a lower division side. Is football so technical these days that the whole group has to work together on tactics at all times? Could the forwards be separated most of the time? Or, if not, what's the balance?

Well, its not simple is it?

This season we were the fourth most "underperforming" team in terms of xG:


1. Everton - 20 goals behind xG, probably all time record
2. Bournemouth - 10 goals behind xG
3. Brentford - 8 goals behind xG
4. Brighton - 7 goals behind xG

We also had the worst shot-on-goal conversion rate and the third worst shot conversion rate overall.

And while Maupay, Welbeck and Connolly not scoring goals was clearly Graham Potters fault, there's certainly no chance that RDZ played any role in Ferguson, Pedro, Welbeck failing to do so for large parts of the season, since he is the best manager of all time.

So what gives?
Well: its simply not that f***ing easy. Danny Welbeck has worked with Sir Alex Ferguson, Arsene Wenger, Graham Potter, Roberto De Zerbi and probably some other top managers, and there's NOTHING that has stopped him being - at best - a bang average finisher.

Does Bobby Zamora know the secret? 10 seasons in the Premier League, ONCE beating the normal Maupayan goal tally of 9. If he knew the secret how to turn someone into a world class finisher, perhaps he should have used it on himself.

Nah.

The boring answer is that literally no one knows. If there was sports science firmly saying "this is how you make someone score goals", Pep Guardiola wouldn't have needed to buy Erling Haaland.

A fair bit of football is "mastered". We know how to optimally kick the ball, we know the optimal positions, we know to large extent the optimal run paths. What we don't know is exactly what happens in the brain when a player miss a chance they would always score in training - and this is very, very common. Is it self-confidence? Is it the adrenaline boost f***ing things up? Composure? Determination? The answers are in the stars.

The answers are also in the future though... Sports science is VERY rapidly moving to the next level - neurological understanding. Technologies are being developed, some are already in place - this season we'll probably hear a fair bit of eye movement trackers which provides data on how often and how efficiently a player is scanning the pitch for passing options and so forth. And thats really just the beginning.

As for your question about training, the answer is that normally yes you will have sessions where the players are divided by position. Premier League isn't "normal" though, because the amount of cups and international players means that a team playing continental football is going to end up doing full intensity football training 3-5 times per month, while a team not playing continental football might end up with 5-7. Here's a good example:

https://i0.wp.com/integrativesoccer.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/image.png?resize=1024%2C572&ssl=1

This means any striker coming to a first team squad in the PL needs to be at least 90% "finished product" when it comes to things like "technical" ability to strike the ball correctly. At our level, its mostly about developing tactical understanding and fitness aspects. You kind of don't have the time to spend a full training sessions just scoring goals or whatever.

 

[Flounce]

Bruno as forwards coach worked as well as whoever the set piece coach is currently. Not very well

I hope neither of them are involved next season

 

[um bongo molongo]

I can’t find the article but an interview with Calvert Lewin stuck in my head when he said that Ancelotti coached him that 90% of the time he should be shooting first time and not taking a touch. Given that he looked a world beater under Ancelotti and very average before and since suggests that you can indeed coach finishing.

I think the reason it stuck in my mind is that I spend most of our games wishing we could get Carlo to coach our forwards on the same thing…

 

[BNthree]

Bruno as forwards coach worked as well as whoever the set piece coach is currently. Not very well

I hope neither of them are involved next season

I've got some news about Bruno that might blow your mind..

 

[Flounce]

I've got some news about Bruno that might blow your mind..

New manager? I’ll be putting my season ticket on the exchange until he fucks off

 

[Withdean South Stand]

Ipswich's striker coach in the last couple of seasons has been Lee Grant, of goalkeeping fame. League goals scored in 22/23 - 101, League goals scored in 23/24 - 92.

193 goals in two seasons having been coached by a goalkeeper with insights into what goalkeepers find hardest to prevent.

 

[Commander]

Since we're talking about Potter and also about the legends night at the Theatre Royal, let's get NSC's opinion on this.

One of the famous things about the Potter era was that we never quite matched our xG with real goals. There were some good debates on here about whether you could specifically coach forward play and particularly finishing.

Zamora said on Monday that you can. In fact the reason Bristol Rovers had a succession of top scorers, not just BZ but also players like Cureton was that Holloway worked the forwards separately and all they did was movement and finishing. The effect, according to BZ, was that they went into games full of confidence when it came to finishing, which became second nature.

So - if you CAN coach finishing, should you? And, if so, to what level?

Obviously we're talking about 20 years ago and a lower division side. Is football so technical these days that the whole group has to work together on tactics at all times? Could the forwards be separated most of the time? Or, if not, what's the balance?

Sorry, your question is can you coach attackers to finish?

Are you suggesting that it could all be completely natural otherwise?