[Politics] Tory voters- where do you go from here?

[WATFORD zero]

And to this I ask what I always ask; does that extend to the seats and influence that Reform and UKIP prior to them would’ve gained? UKIP alone would’ve gained between 60-82 seats based on their 12.6% share.

People think that PR would provide some amazing diversity with the greens, libs and palatable “nice” parties getting representation.

Statistically based on historical voting, it would let in the very people that the lovely, considerate modernisers so despise - namely the Reforms and UKIPs of this world.

But if 12.6% vote for a party, they should get representation they deserve shouldn't they ?

I'm sure Clacton are very happy now they got what they voted for and are getting the representation they wanted and deserve

 

[jcdenton08]

Yes absolutely, I think it would be great for democracy if sections of society that feel that their voices are not currently being heard had more representation in parliament, regardless of their views. Imagine some of the low calibre reform candidates that were thrown together to stand at the last election actually had to have their views properly scrutinised within parliament, it wouldn't be long before their bigoted and racists opinions came out and discredited their party.

I’m not so sure, I can see it going the other way. Besides, these people will have a vote on every commons bill, it would be next to impossible to actually get anything done.

 

[jcdenton08]

But if 12.6% vote for a party, they should get representation they deserve shouldn't they ?

You tell me. By legitimising extreme parties, and giving them a large commons vote, they can essentially hold certain bills they don’t like to ransom. The entire working of Parliament essentially demands opposition from a primary opposition. Under PR we’d have lunacy like Reform and Lib Dem’s allying to against bills which aren’t in their interest.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I’m not so sure, I can see it going the other way. Besides, these people will have a vote on every commons bill, it would be next to impossible to actually get anything done.

Well how does the vast majority of the world manage without FPTP ?

 

[Professor Plum]

I seriously wonder how close the Tory moderates are to binning off this cod-UKIP incarnation of the Tory Party and forming their own party, one that can rid itself of much of the Tory 'baggage', including sleaze, Rwanda, Covid mishandling and Brexit.

The pool of voters who might be receptive to a right of centre, post-Brexit, pro-business, benign paternalistic party is potentially huge; these were the voters who elected Heath, Thatcher, Major and Cameron, indeed many would have voted for Blair and Clegg too.

Given the size of the task facing Labour Britain needs a coherent, united Opposition that is not The Nasty Party, obsessed with Nigel Farage.

There’s no way the Tories will want to fragment themselves yet further. As for the idea of a new ‘common sense’ middle-ground party it was tried before. I can barely even remember what they were called. Change? Anna Soubry et al. Got absolutely nowhere without any boots-on-the-ground local organisation, activists, database of aupporters etc.

Change UK. Had to Google it.

 

[Professor Plum]

And to this I ask what I always ask; does that extend to the seats and influence that Reform and UKIP prior to them would’ve gained? UKIP alone would’ve gained between 60-82 seats based on their 12.6% share.

People think that PR would provide some amazing diversity with the greens, libs and palatable “nice” parties getting representation.

Statistically based on historical voting, it would let in the very people that the lovely, considerate modernisers so despise - namely the Reforms and UKIPs of this world.

The Greens would do very well with PR which is why they’re so vehemently in favour of it. PR isn’t designed to give seats to any particular party. It’s designed to implement representative democracy, warts and all.

 

[jcdenton08]

Well how does the vast majority of the world manage without FPTP ?

Many countries don’t, or the very things I am cautioning about above occur.

Just look at Austria where the far right have just taken power, they entered a coalition in 2017 due to their voting share, which exposed their extreme views to the populace, earning votes from the racist and disillusioned by sheer exposure to their rhetoric by virtue of their coalition.

Then there is Italy, who have had (I think) the most governments for a democracy - and very unstable, usually coalition ones at that - since the war. Over 60 in fact, with an average lifespan of 23 months.

Same with Belgium, who actually went a year and a half without a government, because their Parliament was so split with no clear ideological position from one side and another.

Then there’s Portugal, Denmark, Spain…

 

[Professor Plum]

You tell me. By legitimising extreme parties, and giving them a large commons vote, they can essentially hold certain bills they don’t like to ransom…….

Under PR we’d have lunacy like Reform and Lib Dem’s allying to against bills which aren’t in their interest.

Yep, democracy can be a bitch. If these parties’ seats represent the same ratio of voters in the country, why shouldn’t they be able to obstruct bills that are unwanted by that proportion of voters?

 

[Doonhamer7]

I thought I read that there is now less than 100,000 members of the Tory party, and due to inertia of the majority it only takes 30-50 members in a consistuency to chose the MP, so this much easier to influence than corbinysm / momentum did with the Labour Party to chose more extreme candidates

 

[jcdenton08]

Yep, democracy can be a bitch. If these parties’ seats represent the same ratio of voters in the country, why shouldn’t they be able to obstruct bills that are unwanted by that proportion of voters?

Because proportions of voters can turn into majorities of voters if exposed to their rhetoric, promises to buck the status quo, and disillusionment with their lot in life. As per Austria.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You are a dying breed though aren't you, as someone who is a member of one of the main two political parties. I think FPTP was better suited for the days when people had a strong lifelong allegiance to a single party, which was often passed down through family generations. Now there is much more diversity and changeability in peoples political views, very few people are members of parties these days and a lot of people wouldn't consider themselves a 'labour voter' or 'conservative voter' like they used to.

As a labour member I suppose I can understand why you would favour the status quo, but with FPTP political diversity is suppressed and the reality for many people including myself is that when the election comes along they have to hold their nose and vote for the party that they dislike the most. This makes people feel like they don't have a voice and is not good for democracy.

Not sure if I'm a dying breed. You may be right, though .

I can tell you nevertheless, youngster as you are, you will never be able to vote for exactly what you want with any hope you will get what you want, because the candidate/party that exactly fits your requirements exactly doesn't exist, and even if they did, other people would vote for some other bugger and your candidate wouldn't win.

#theartofthepossible

 

[nicko31]

You tell me. By legitimising extreme parties, and giving them a large commons vote, they can essentially hold certain bills they don’t like to ransom. The entire working of Parliament essentially demands opposition from a primary opposition. Under PR we’d have lunacy like Reform and Lib Dem’s allying to against bills which aren’t in their interest.

Not sure you can put a centrist party like the LDs and the hard right Reform in the same basket

 

[jcdenton08]

Not sure you can put a centrist party like the LDs and the hard right Reform in the same basket

My point is that they’d ally to block government policy despite their obvious differences. I wasn’t calling the LD’s an extreme party

 

[GT49er]

Not sure you can put a centrist party like the LDs and the hard right Reform in the same basket

If it suits them, they'll jump right in together, and that's no error!

 

[Professor Plum]

My point is that they’d ally to block government policy despite their obvious differences. I wasn’t calling the LD’s an extreme party

It doesn’t matter if the LDs are different from Reform. If they both disagree with government policy they’re entitled to vote against it. What’s worse IMO is a huge government majority able to do whatever it likes, despite only 30% of the voters supporting them. And only 20% of the entire electorate voting for them. Why is that any better?

 

[Hugo Rune]

So in summary the Tory great and good (pardon!) have decided that their future lays in the hands of two unelectable fucktards. Jenrick is just a turd in human form and Badenoch, who if she were white, would be taking pelters for being a racist bitch.
The Tories are the political equivalent of ‘The Office’ but just not as believable.

A justified description of Jenrick.

An ex-public schoolboy who gave his daughter the middle name ‘Thatcher’ and makes his wife dress up as the former Prime Minister in order to inspire his priapism in order to breed out more Tories.

 

[nicko31]

Are Tory party members ready to vote for a leader of colour?

Getting Kemi would suit Reform for sure

 

[Professor Plum]

Are Tory party members ready to vote for a leader of colour?

Getting Kemi would suit Reform for sure

Well they’ve already voted in one, Rishi Sunak — not just as leader but as PM. And Badenoch apparently had a 20% leader when Conservative Home conducted a survey at their party conference (according to a headline in the Telegraph a few days ago). So perhaps we should revisit our own prejudices?

 

[Professor Plum]

A justified description of Jenrick.

An ex-public schoolboy who gave his daughter the middle name ‘Thatcher’ and makes his wife dress up as the former Prime Minister in order to inspire his priapism in order to breed out more Tories.

View attachment 190193

It’s a bit unsettling, agreed, but it happens on both sides. Wasn’t Sir Keir named after Keir Hardie? And Jeremy Corbyn used to wear that Lenin cap before he was told to smarten up his image.

 

[Bry Nylon]

Well they’ve already voted in one, Rishi Sunak — not just as leader but as PM. And Badenoch apparently had a 20% leader when Conservative Home conducted a survey at their party conference (according to a headline in the Telegraph a few days ago). So perhaps we should revisit our own prejudices?

Didn't Sunak (i) lose to Truss in a vote by the party membership, then (ii) became party leader (and PM) when Truss quit as he was unopposed so there was no vote?

I could be wrong; we've had so many PMs in the last few years its hard to keep track tbh