[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

maybe, you dont hear Conservatives ever making the case.

under any single seat system Wealden will return Conservative, just as Knowsley will return Labour. to address the under representation that arises from current system needs change to regional system, ending the links with constituency seats. btw that returned UKIP/Conservative majority in last national vote under PR. we'd have a very different political landscape under proper PR.

Indeed. It baffles me that liberals and greens (who favour PR) are so relaxed about letting the likes of Farrage into parliament and increasing the risk of a far right coalition. f*** PR

 

[nicko31]

I would say they aren't differentiating themselves from labour either. Partly because they are completely invisible. I couldn't name their leader, let alone any front benchers.

I guess for them being visible with 15 MPs is difficult. Should put Layla Moran in as leader and change course

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Indeed. It baffles me that liberals and greens (who favour PR) are so relaxed about letting the likes of Farrage into parliament and increasing the risk of a far right coalition. f*** PR

You mean, like our current government?

 

[Pevenseagull]

I got the name of my constituency wrong. Whately is my MP

Both in the tory's top 60 safest seats so unlikely to be going anywhere soon ..... (unless Farage and Johnson want a safe seat).

 

[nicko31]

Indeed. It baffles me that liberals and greens (who favour PR) are so relaxed about letting the likes of Farrage into parliament and increasing the risk of a far right coalition. f*** PR

Is Farage hard right or far right? I think the former, he ain't Nick Griffin. We already have a hard right government already.

At least PR would give us a representative democracy. The Tories only got 300k more votes in the last election than 2017 and got a whopping majority. System is knackered...

 

[ManOfSussex]

I got the name of my constituency wrong. Whately is my MP

A Survation poll in The Times last month had this for Faversham and Mid Kent:

Faversham and Mid Kent
Winner: Con
Vote share by party

Con 41.4%
Lab 35.8%
Lib Dem 10.9%
Green 4.3%
SNP 0%
Plaid 0%

Labour set to do better than Blair’s 1997 landslide at next election, poll says

Sir Keir Starmer is on course to win more seats than Tony Blair did in his landslide victory in 1997 despite his party being riven with divisions over whether to back a ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas conflict.Labour would win the keys to Downing Street with a 212-seat majority if the general election

www.thetimes.co.uk

Tory hold due to the vote being split. Some amazing Tory losses elsewhere though if true.

 

[chip]

Interesting that some people think we should be forced to vote in a represenative democracy, no matter what form. Compulsory preferntial voting seems insane if you don't support any of the parties. With PR in its many forms, manifestos seem pointless when you are likely to get a coalition - you literally have no idea of what the future governments priorities will be. We have a right to vote, not an obligation.

Personally, I think the House of Lords is a bigger danger to democracy. I think it would be better elected with lower numbers, but would still be just more of the same then. I'd prefer a system like jury service, I'd like to have normal people scrutinising parliament.

 

[nicko31]

Interesting that some people think we should be forced to vote in a represenative democracy, no matter what form. Compulsory preferntial voting seems insane if you don't support any of the parties. With PR in its many forms, manifestos seem pointless when you are likely to get a coalition - you literally have no idea of what the future governments priorities will be. We have a right to vote, not an obligation.

Personally, I think the House of Lords is a bigger danger to democracy. I think it would be better elected with lower numbers, but would still be just more of the same then. I'd prefer a system like jury service, I'd like to have normal people scrutinising parliament.

I'm not the biggest fan of the HOL in its current form, it needs further reform.

That said with the recent crop of dishonest actors who have had little respect for democracy, our institutions and the rule of law its been been an essential guardrail against the slide toward facism

 

[KZNSeagull]

Interesting that some people think we should be forced to vote in a represenative democracy, no matter what form. Compulsory preferntial voting seems insane if you don't support any of the parties. With PR in its many forms, manifestos seem pointless when you are likely to get a coalition - you literally have no idea of what the future governments priorities will be. We have a right to vote, not an obligation.

Personally, I think the House of Lords is a bigger danger to democracy. I think it would be better elected with lower numbers, but would still be just more of the same then. I'd prefer a system like jury service, I'd like to have normal people scrutinising parliament.

I have read "How Westminster Works.....And Why It Doesn't" by Ian Dunt and he says that only 2 parts of Westminster actually work well - Select Committees and the House of Lords. He says that whilst it does need reform, it has a vital role as there is not a majority for 1 party, many in there are not affiliated to a party which encourages compromise and many are subject experts in their respective fields, a trait sadly lacking in the House of Commons.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Indeed. It baffles me that liberals and greens (who favour PR) are so relaxed about letting the likes of Farrage into parliament and increasing the risk of a far right coalition. f*** PR

Because there's certainly no chance of us getting a far right government under FPTP ...... oh

 

[Audax]

The thing is the LD's aren't differentiating themselves enough from Labour.

On Europe they have nothing to fear, FFS be bold, what is there to lose? Call out the Brexit shitshow and explain how to fix it....

Agreed. I personally think that the LD's are so busy passing the ball around they've completely failed to notice that the Conservatives' goalie has been laid out cold by their right winger and the center-mids are too busy watching that going on to notice what's happening elsewhere on the field and the goal is wide open for a tap-in.

IMO, the Lib Dems should make a bold move to claim the centre-right that the Conservatives have vacated. Do it alongside having a strong pro-environment and pro-integrity platform as a strong differentiating point, and they could find themselves replacing the Tories as the opposition once Labour sweep to a landslide GE win. Basically take the "Teal Independent" concept from Australia and apply it with the funding and electoral know-how of an experienced political party. Then go and target all the Tory seats that Labour can't hope to win even in a landslide.

Interesting that some people think we should be forced to vote in a represenative democracy, no matter what form. Compulsory preferntial voting seems insane if you don't support any of the parties. With PR in its many forms, manifestos seem pointless when you are likely to get a coalition - you literally have no idea of what the future governments priorities will be. We have a right to vote, not an obligation.

Personally, I think the House of Lords is a bigger danger to democracy. I think it would be better elected with lower numbers, but would still be just more of the same then. I'd prefer a system like jury service, I'd like to have normal people scrutinising parliament.

Even in Australia it isn't compulsory to vote. It's compulsory to turn up and get your name crossed off. After that, you can just draw a big comedy cock on the ballot and stick it in the box. Or just leave the ballot blank.

 

[essbee1]

Agreed. I personally think that the LD's are so busy passing the ball around they've completely failed to notice that the Conservatives' goalie has been laid out cold by their right winger and the center-mids are too busy watching that going on to notice what's happening elsewhere on the field and the goal is wide open for a tap-in.

IMO, the Lib Dems should make a bold move to claim the centre-right that the Conservatives have vacated. Do it alongside having a strong pro-environment and pro-integrity platform as a strong differentiating point, and they could find themselves replacing the Tories as the opposition once Labour sweep to a landslide GE win. Basically take the "Teal Independent" concept from Australia and apply it with the funding and electoral know-how of an experienced political party. Then go and target all the Tory seats that Labour can't hope to win even in a landslide.



Even in Australia it isn't compulsory to vote. It's compulsory to turn up and get your name crossed off. After that, you can just draw a big comedy cock on the ballot and stick it in the box. Or just leave the ballot blank.

The irony being that a cock would be the most apt sign for 99.99% of politicians anyway.

 

[nicko31]

Agreed. I personally think that the LD's are so busy passing the ball around they've completely failed to notice that the Conservatives' goalie has been laid out cold by their right winger and the center-mids are too busy watching that going on to notice what's happening elsewhere on the field and the goal is wide open for a tap-in.

IMO, the Lib Dems should make a bold move to claim the centre-right that the Conservatives have vacated. Do it alongside having a strong pro-environment and pro-integrity platform as a strong differentiating point, and they could find themselves replacing the Tories as the opposition once Labour sweep to a landslide GE win. Basically take the "Teal Independent" concept from Australia and apply it with the funding and electoral know-how of an experienced political party. Then go and target all the Tory seats that Labour can't hope to win even in a landslide.



Even in Australia it isn't compulsory to vote. It's compulsory to turn up and get your name crossed off. After that, you can just draw a big comedy cock on the ballot and stick it in the box. Or just leave the ballot blank.

I like the AU system except one thing, the ridiculous 3 year term, way too short

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Because there's certainly no chance of us getting a far right government under FPTP ...... oh

You really think this government is far right? It certainly has its moments, but the most recent example of a minister pushing to step away from the rule of law resulted in her sacking followed by a resignation. If the Tories were relying on Tommy Robinson and his rabble to stay in power, or if Labour were relying on the SWP, we would all be f***ed.

 

[Audax]

I like the AU system except one thing, the ridiculous 3 year term, way too short

Agreed. 4 or 5 years would be better, although that would then need a change to how the Senate is run: Senate is 6 year terms, with a half-house election every 3 years. I don't think that would work with 4 or 5 year terms, not sure on how advisable it is to be giving someone an 8 or 10 year term.

(For those unfamiliar, the Aussie Senate is equivalent to the House of Lords, with following exceptions:
a) It's elected, using a form of proportional voting.
b) It actually has teeth. It can, and has historically, kill off bad legislation rammed through the lower house by a majority government.)

 

[WATFORD zero]

You really think this government is far right? It certainly has its moments, but the most recent example of a minister pushing to step away from the rule of law resulted in her sacking followed by a resignation. If the Tories were relying on Tommy Robinson and his rabble to stay in power, or if Labour were relying on the SWP, we would all be f***ed.

I would respectfully suggest that Braverman, Rees-Mogg, Kwarteng, Baker are all from the far right of the political spectrum and have held very senior positions in this Government's cabinet. Lee Anderson is Deputy Chairman FFS.

So yes, I believe that this Government has had, and continues to have extreme right wingers in positions of power within cabinet, the fear of which I believe is one of your major arguments against PR and for FPTP. In that an extreme party in coalition may be able to get someone into cabinet ?

But there's really no need to exaggerate, Tommy Robinson

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

A Survation poll in The Times last month had this for Faversham and Mid Kent:

Faversham and Mid Kent
Winner: Con
Vote share by party

Con 41.4%
Lab 35.8%
Lib Dem 10.9%
Green 4.3%
SNP 0%
Plaid 0%

Labour set to do better than Blair’s 1997 landslide at next election, poll says

Sir Keir Starmer is on course to win more seats than Tony Blair did in his landslide victory in 1997 despite his party being riven with divisions over whether to back a ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas conflict.Labour would win the keys to Downing Street with a 212-seat majority if the general election

www.thetimes.co.uk

Tory hold due to the vote being split. Some amazing Tory losses elsewhere though if true.

That looks about right as a forecast. The Liberals are strong in Faversham itself. There are liberal thingies on sticks up right now, presumably for a council election I now nothing about. But out in the sticks and towards Maidstone it's true blue, with hoards of geriatrics ready to put down their X for Mr Johnson.

What's weird and a tad annoying is my council is dominated by Sittingbourne and Sheppy where some atrange independent party holds sway, albeit now in a labour led coalition, with the tories the largest single party but in opposition. And all this without PR!

:

Faversham itself is all labour and liberal. Talk about a borough were the average (and indeed any coalition you can think of) represents the average view.

 

[Machiavelli]

I have read "How Westminster Works.....And Why It Doesn't" by Ian Dunt and he says that only 2 parts of Westminster actually work well - Select Committees and the House of Lords. He says that whilst it does need reform, it has a vital role as there is not a majority for 1 party, many in there are not affiliated to a party which encourages compromise and many are subject experts in their respective fields, a trait sadly lacking in the House of Commons.

Agree on Parliamentary Select Committees. They seem to produce well-informed reports irrespective of who's actually on them.
HoL, I'll begrudgingly say also serves a purpose for most of the time, but the appointment system is just dreadful that makes me blanch at making such statements.

 

[chickens]

Agreed. 4 or 5 years would be better, although that would then need a change to how the Senate is run: Senate is 6 year terms, with a half-house election every 3 years. I don't think that would work with 4 or 5 year terms, not sure on how advisable it is to be giving someone an 8 or 10 year term.

(For those unfamiliar, the Aussie Senate is equivalent to the House of Lords, with following exceptions:
a) It's elected, using a form of proportional voting.
b) It actually has teeth. It can, and has historically, kill off bad legislation rammed through the lower house by a majority government.)

It sounds bloody idyllic from here.

 

[chip]

I have read "How Westminster Works.....And Why It Doesn't" by Ian Dunt and he says that only 2 parts of Westminster actually work well - Select Committees and the House of Lords. He says that whilst it does need reform, it has a vital role as there is not a majority for 1 party, many in there are not affiliated to a party which encourages compromise and many are subject experts in their respective fields, a trait sadly lacking in the House of Commons.

That was the case when they were heredetary too, it doesn't make it democratic or representative no matter how many experts there are. There are many failed politicians, we now have one as Foreign Secretary. Their selection is hardly transparent and I can think of better ways to get an effective autocracy. I agree that in some respects it works but I don't think we have asked the question what it should be doing in its present/future forms. As long as seats in the Lords are a gift of the few, it isn't really fit for purpose in a democracy. The CCP works well on many metrics, but not sure that's a system I'd like here.