[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Yes I am entirely aware of this.

Oh good, I was worried you were losing it.

I also remind myself that if we change the political system to benefit the nice people, the nice liberals and greens, this will equally benefit the horrible little shits. The Britain First fuckers or whatever they morph themselves into. Farrage would have a seat in parliament and the oxygen of publicity would fill his shitty lungs.

The crucial advantage of STV is that people still need to vote for a particular candidate. Something that no constituency has ever shown any indication of doing for Nigel Farage.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You might be disappointed to hear that there is momentum within Labour for PR. See, for instance, the Labour mayor of Manchester.

Not disappointed. And wrt your post above, I am happy to accept that times change and that as I get older perhaps I fail to notice. (Albeit yes there is a momentum still in labour, sadly).

Society has improved immeasurably in my lifetime. The casual racism and sexism that was part of daily life has receded. I was so shocked when an older poster invoked 'the mental health card' yesterday on NSC. I put him on ignore. WTAF?

So yes, the tide of history may be moving to something new and, although I don't see it clearly myself, I hope you are right. I think I would like to see a technocrat UK, gentler, it's politics duller perhaps.

It would be nice if the UK looked to Germany where public backing of Nazi-ism is illegal, and made some of the racist tubthumping, the scapegoating of minorities etc., by the likes of Farrage, illegal. Shut the f***ing fuckers up.

I think we'd need that if we want to mover to gentler waters. FPTP and the adversarial system are intertwined, and you can bet your life the tory right will campaign that Labour and the others are taking away our democratic freedoms, our long held traditions and the British Way by seeking to advance PR.

I'm not saying this is not a war worth winning, but it will be a war, and a nasty one I suspect.

But there again, I could be wrong. I hope I am

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

There's a definite softening of your perspective in there somewhere

You know me well enough. I'm a reasonable man.







Ahem.

 

[vegster]

Not disappointed. And wrt your post above, I am happy to accept that times change and that as I get older perhaps I fail to notice. (Albeit yes there is a momentum still in labour, sadly).

Society has improved immeasurably in my lifetime. The casual racism and sexism that was part of daily life has receded. I was so shocked when an older poster invoked 'the mental health card' yesterday on NSC. I put him on ignore. WTAF?

So yes, the tide of history may be moving to something new and, although I don't see it clearly myself, I hope you are right. I think I would like to see a technocrat UK, gentler, it's politics duller perhaps.

It would be nice if the UK looked to Germany where public backing of Nazi-ism is illegal, and made some of the racist tubthumping, the scapegoating of minorities etc., by the likes of Farrage, illegal. Shut the f***ing fuckers up.

I think we'd need that if we want to mover to gentler waters. FPTP and the adversarial system are intertwined, and you can bet your life the tory right will campaign that Labour and the others are taking away our democratic freedoms, our long held traditions and the British Way by seeking to advance PR.

I'm not saying this is not a war worth winning, but it will be a war, and a nasty one I suspect.

But there again, I could be wrong. I hope I am

Good points Harry. Wouldn't it be lovely to have a group of politicians across all parties arguing constructively for law's and policies to improve the lives of the citizens of this country for once !

 

[jcdenton08]

Good points Harry. Wouldn't it be lovely to have a group of politicians across all parties arguing constructively for law's and policies to improve the lives of the citizens of this country for once !

It’s hard though isn’t it, because you’ve got two primary viewpoints in direct opposition.

 

[Machiavelli]

Not disappointed. And wrt your post above, I am happy to accept that times change and that as I get older perhaps I fail to notice. (Albeit yes there is a momentum still in labour, sadly).

Society has improved immeasurably in my lifetime. The casual racism and sexism that was part of daily life has receded. I was so shocked when an older poster invoked 'the mental health card' yesterday on NSC. I put him on ignore. WTAF?

So yes, the tide of history may be moving to something new and, although I don't see it clearly myself, I hope you are right. I think I would like to see a technocrat UK, gentler, it's politics duller perhaps.

It would be nice if the UK looked to Germany where public backing of Nazi-ism is illegal, and made some of the racist tubthumping, the scapegoating of minorities etc., by the likes of Farrage, illegal. Shut the f***ing fuckers up.

I think we'd need that if we want to mover to gentler waters. FPTP and the adversarial system are intertwined, and you can bet your life the tory right will campaign that Labour and the others are taking away our democratic freedoms, our long held traditions and the British Way by seeking to advance PR.

I'm not saying this is not a war worth winning, but it will be a war, and a nasty one I suspect.

But there again, I could be wrong. I hope I am

You the good guy, HWT
I don't think PR is the most important thing that needs to be done, but think it'd be an improvement. If it comes about, no idea how it will.
Unlike you, I'm no fan of technocracy, and prefer democracy, including the conflict that comes with it.

 

[A1X]

 

[Bodian]

There must be something quite damning to Sunak in these messages for them to be threatening this.

 

[Screaming J]

Yes I am entirely aware of this. I am sympathetic to nice people (greens and Liberals may be a bit gauche but they seem to be nice) getting what they want. It does seem a bit miserable knowing the best you can hope for is some awkward coalition with the tories (the liberals) or labour (the greens). And sometimes I think that if everything could be completely different, and we could be like the Germans, happy with a technocrat government that nods to the church but doesn't engage with anything populist (like 'protecting' our borders and f***ing Brexit) then why not try out PR? Let's see what happens, and all that. Maybe Brits would become a bit nicer if they didn't see every election as a death race, where the winner stamps gleefully on the faces of the vanquished oppositions. Maybe.

But then I look at parliament, the f***ing awful shower in charge, and consider how weaselly they were last time they were in a coalition government. And then I look at the liberals and the greens, with their micro obsessions with nonsense such as legalizing cannabis and objecting to appalling developments such as the Amex stadium, and their general cluelessness and I think. . . . why? Why the f*** would I want to see Labour in a coalition with these goons? Would I feel that it would be more fair to my lovely neighbour who objects to every modern advance because it may inconvenience a starling? The neighbour who thought it would be a good idea to plant stinging nettles in her garden?

I don't know. Maybe we would all become nicer and more tolerant. Maybe the government would stop directing public funds into the swiss bank accounts of their cronies, gleefully ransacking public resources for their own enrichment. Swanning about like little princelings, abusing junior staff and breaking all the rules they set for the rest of us.

Maybe. Yeah, in moments of despair I may reach for PR. However I'd rather encourage people to vote strategically to get the current shower out. I don't want a coalition.

I also remind myself that if we change the political system to benefit the nice people, the nice liberals and greens, this will equally benefit the horrible little shits. The Britain First fuckers or whatever they morph themselves into. Farrage would have a seat in parliament and the oxygen of publicity would fill his shitty lungs.

Look, I'd like to support PR because it seems so fair. But I can't.

See you in 6 months for another hand-wrininging episode of should I, shouldn't I?

I am no flag waver for the Lib Dems, but to be fair I seem to remember that, outside Lewes, most of them thought De Vecchi et al's opposition to the stadium was absolutely barking.

 

[clapham_gull]

There must be something quite damning to Sunak in these messages for them to be threatening this.

I somewhat doubt it, although happy to be proved wrong. This is the first real whatsapp enabled administration / Civil Service and clearly and are unable to function without it.

They have blurred the lines between private, public and professional communication and are worried a precedent is being set.

New Labour would probably tried to pull the same trick.

A self entitled political class. If you go to work in public office, one of the "risks" you have to take is every now and then a public inquiry comes along and you to hand over everything, not unlike a Police investigation.

Covid clearly didn't help, private conversations now being held electronically for obvious reasons but it is what it is.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I am no flag waver for the Lib Dems, but to be fair I seem to remember that, outside Lewes, most of them thought De Vecchi et al's opposition to the stadium was absolutely barking.

Now is not the time for being fair

 

[Machiavelli]

I somewhat doubt it, although happy to be proved wrong. This is the first real whatsapp enabled administration / Civil Service and clearly and are unable to function without it.

They have blurred the lines between private, public and professional communication and are worried a precedent is being set.

New Labour would probably tried to pull the same trick.

A self entitled political class. If you go to work in public office, one of the "risks" you have to take is every now and then a public inquiry comes along and you to hand over everything, not unlike a Police investigation.

Covid clearly didn't help, private conversations now being held electronically for obvious reasons but it is what it is.

New Labour pioneered this with 'sofa government'. WhatsApp government is just the latest iteration of it. The big difference is that sofa government was done through ethereal conversations, whereas there's a record of communications under WhatsApp government.

 

[Lever]

I wouldn't use exactly the same language but I do agree with the relative categories.....

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The Covid Enquiry is centering on Eat Out to Help Out with criticism for Sunak as Chancellor. I criticised it on the Covid thread and was called stupid (or similar).

 

[CheeseRolls]

Lewis Goodall pointed out that Labour would need a swing similar to that which Blair gained in 1997 simply to reach an overall majority of 1. This makes talk of a Labour majority seem pretty fanciful. However, a Labour government is looking far more likely, as the Tories simply haven’t got anybody left to form a coalition with. Pretty much everybody is now lined up against them.

LidDem to be a coalition partner following big gains in the south? A referendum on an end to FPTP as a precondition of entering into any agreement? I’d take that. Would love to see off FPTP so I can vote Green usefully and not just as a Woking based hissy fit.

Was taking a look at the Woking Council debt situation. What is the story around Victoria Square? It looks like a complete financial mess that the Greens have inherited from the Tories. What isn't clear is if this is a case of wrong investment at the wrong time, or something less competent?

 

[nicko31]

There must be something quite damning to Sunak in these messages for them to be threatening this.

Most of the dirt is already out there on Johnson and if you still support him now you will still support him. Sunak is a different kettle of fish, his personal rating isn't too bad versus the wider Tory party.

Johnson is still deeply bitter he got kicked out of office and wants to take the ship down with him. He's done with calcs and considers there is more for him personally to gain than those.

At least the press have stopped talking about Philip Schofield (yawn)

 

[WATFORD zero]

Most of the dirt is already out there on Johnson and if you still support him now you will still support him. Sunak is a different kettle of fish, his personal rating isn't too bad versus the wider Tory party.

Johnson is still deeply bitter he got kicked out of office and wants to take the ship down with him. He's done with calcs and considers there is more for him personally to gain than those.

At least the press have stopped talking about Philip Schofield (yawn)

It is quite weird the way that Johnson's no 2 (ironically ), promoted to that position after less than 5 years as an MP, who was at his side throughout the complete clusterf*** of Brexit, Covid and all the other disasters, also fined for breaking their own COVID rules, personally pushed through the Eat out to help out disaster, the Green card fiasco, non doms, the illegal Government PPE 'fast path' etc etc etc

is somehow seen as less incompetent, dishonest, selfish and egotistical than the rest of the cabal

Still, look how long it took for many to find out about Johnson, despite having had the evidence presented to them, in detail, for years before he got near real power and yet he still has supporters. And the same people who will claim 'all politicians are the same' are the ones that can't see all of this cabal really are

 

[nicko31]

It is quite weird the way that Johnson's no 2 (ironically ), promoted to that position after less than 5 years as an MP, who was at his side throughout the complete clusterf*** of Brexit, Covid and all the other disasters, also fined for breaking their own COVID rules, personally pushed through the Eat out to help out disaster, the Green card fiasco, non doms, the illegal Government PPE 'fast path' etc etc etc

is somehow seen as less incompetent, dishonest, selfish and egotistical than the rest of the cabal

Still, look how long it took for many to find out about Johnson, despite having had the evidence presented to them, in detail, for years before he got near real power and yet he still has supporters

Yeap, Sunak's record on the public finances is appalling. Anyone who thinks he's a good operator is deluded. He's just not as corrupt or lying as Johnson, that's about it.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Yeap, Sunak's record on the public finances is appalling. Anyone who thinks he's a good operator is deluded. He's just not as corrupt or lying as Johnson, that's about it.

I suspect there's not much in it. Otherwise why would he take his own enquiry to court to stop them completing their enquiry

 

[The Clamp]

Sunak is very likely as corrupt as Johnson. Look at all the undeclared business interests him and his wife are up to their necks in.

He’s just not as obviously Toady as Johnson.