[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Thunder Bolt]

Since 2010 the Tories have been outdoing themselves in the who can be the most risible government of all time. Against the odds by setting up an Inquiry and then taking it court Sunak actually appears to have outperformed the very tough competition to top them all.

It has been a lost 13years where this country has acted against it's own self interest, constantly punching itself in the face amidst a floor full of cut off noses in a room filled with spited faces.

Apparently the next election is due Jan 2025, it is intolerable that we have to endure this utter incompetence for a further year and half.

Look at the latest article in the Telegraph. Jeremy Vine has also questioned non workers. How short a step is it to label disabled and old people as useless eaters?

 

[Hotchilidog]

Look at the latest article in the Telegraph. Jeremy Vine has also questioned non workers. How short a step is it to label disabled and old people as useless eaters?

I saw that, it's disgraceful and sadly the Labour Party are now toying with benefit-shaming rhetoric also. The state of the two main parties is thoroughly depressing at the moment.

 

[A1X]

No-one's suggesting that the enquiry won't see all the communications about the Eat Out scheme, and it will be interesting to see if it made any difference (probably didn't, since the second wave wasn't restricted to just the UK, but it will be interesting to see - in 7 years' time if the enquiry's own implied timescale comes true!) What the enquiry is suggesting is that they need to see every message about anything on any subject. But the cabinet office has given full support to submitting all messages relevant to the pandemic.

They can't be giving "full support" if they are only submitting some of the messages they choose to. The two cannot both be true.

 

[Randy McNob]

The key word is majority.
With the FPTP system, the majority didn’t vote for the Tories or Cons.

Correct. If you look at the overall share of the UK electorate, it's actually left of centre but the cente left / left votes are split between labour / SNP / Lib Dem / green. Cons don't have real right of centre competition, although some would argue Labour have occupied that ground.

So the overall will of the electorate is for a social democracy, similar to the Norway model. What we have is a far right party and the undemocratic FPTP allows this, where the Tories are elected on a manifesto (don't deliver a single promise) with sometimes less than a quarter of the vote, then morph into something completely different which is only validated by a fraction of the people and everyone has no say or voice.

If labour or lab coalition get in, we need electoral reform

 

[Bodian]

What actually is the purpose of this request for all government and private messages sent by and received by Johnson?

Surely the purpose is for the inquiry to see how decisions were made, who took them, and so on. If, as likely, much discussions leading up to (or including) decisions was done via private messages, then they need to see them.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

Sunak's "Integrity, professionalism and accountability" seems to be going well so far.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Boris has sent all unredacted WhatsApps to the inquiry.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Your continual defence of this current cabal's every action, despite the mounting mountains of evidence to the contrary is really quite remarkable.

A bit like the callers they let on 5 live in order to meet the Government's 'balance' requirements of the bbc. My favourite from yesterday 'I think Boris is a lovely man and had to do a very hard job and did his best. He's not even Prime Minister anymore, people should stop picking on him'.

For one, I don't defend the government's every action; for another, if I did, it's only to provide counterpoint to the majority on here who criticise the government's every action. When someone broadly conservative posts on a board which is strongly left wing, they're bound to come across as apparently supportive of the current government, even though I actually think they're incompetent, useless, and unconservative. (Especially economically.) (Though I do think the civil service is sabotaging their intentions to some extent. As witnessed by the absurd complaints from the civil service unions that civil servants might be obliged to act against their consciences.)

 

[dsr-burnley]

Boris has sent all unredacted WhatsApps to the inquiry.

Hell to pay if anything about Ukraine, for example, is made public.

 

[Bodian]

Boris has sent all unredacted WhatsApps to the inquiry.

These are all presumably the post 2021 WhatsApps - which he knows full well won't say anything about the issues running up to the main decisions that the Inquiry is looking into. The pre 2021 WhatsApps are all on another phone that seemingly may not be able to be accessed.

He wouldn't be doing this if there was any chance whatsoever of him being caught out about anything....

 

[Machiavelli]

Hell to pay if anything about Ukraine, for example, is made public.

Why would Lady Hallett make that public? She needs the messages in order to conduct a thorough enquiry -- which is what the remit is, set up by the government, who also appointed her -- which might establish some trust in the process. You don't seem to care about that.
I stand by my previous comment about you.

 

[pb21]

Is there anything going on here about Johnson and Sunak?

Johnson handing over stuff Sunak doesn't want to.

Or as @Bodian says, maybe Johnson isnt really doing anything.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yes they did.
The electorate knew exactly what kind of government it would get, under Johnson, he'd been a TV 'personality' for years before hand.

The opposition knew exactly what we'd get and yet inexplicably still put forward the only man who could possibly let it happen.

Yes, but Jeremy Corbyn was the most popular leader ever. So a young person told me. And labour won all the arguments. That's why labour got the majority of the votes. Don't you see?

And now they are just tory lite.

That's why we need to get rid of first past the post, and vote for a coalition between the greens, liberals and a left wing labour party led by someone like Becca Wrong-Bailey.

 

[Jim in the West]

For one, I don't defend the government's every action; for another, if I did, it's only to provide counterpoint to the majority on here who criticise the government's every action. When someone broadly conservative posts on a board which is strongly left wing, they're bound to come across as apparently supportive of the current government, even though I actually think they're incompetent, useless, and unconservative. (Especially economically.) (Though I do think the civil service is sabotaging their intentions to some extent. As witnessed by the absurd complaints from the civil service unions that civil servants might be obliged to act against their consciences.)

To be fair, it's not exactly difficult to criticise the government's every action!

And I'm not sure I'd characterise this board as "strongly left wing".....I guess we're mainly a relatively tolerant, liberal, dare I say - progressive - bunch. I think some of the push-back against those with Tory views is that the Conservative Party has been taken over by a rather nasty, pretty dangerous bunch of self-seekers who plainly couldn't give a toss about the country, still less those in so-called Red Wall seats who voted them in last time.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Your continual defence of this current cabal's every action, despite the mounting mountains of evidence to the contrary is really quite remarkable.

A bit like the callers they let on 5 live in order to meet the Government's 'balance' requirements of the bbc. My favourite from yesterday 'I think Boris is a lovely man and had to do a very hard job and did his best. He's not even Prime Minister anymore, people should stop picking on him'.

I remember that caller. You could almost hear the tears of admiration for Johnson rolling down her face as she recounted how he had personally sacrificed everything to save us all, and he's only human!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Correct. If you look at the overall share of the UK electorate, it's actually left of centre but the cente left / left votes are split between labour / SNP / Lib Dem / green. Cons don't have real right of centre competition, although some would argue Labour have occupied that ground.

So the overall will of the electorate is for a social democracy, similar to the Norway model. What we have is a far right party and the undemocratic FPTP allows this, where the Tories are elected on a manifesto (don't deliver a single promise) with sometimes less than a quarter of the vote, then morph into something completely different which is only validated by a fraction of the people and everyone has no say or voice.

If labour or lab coalition get in, we need electoral reform

To rig the system so the tories can't win?

I'd be pleased by the outcome, but how can this be justified? It makes us just as bad as them surely?

For me I would rather have a party that can win the arguments. As a Labour member I am still acutely aware that we are still not fully recovered from the Militant take over and the Corbyn omnishambles.

We have just about overcome the stigma of being an anti-Semitic party with mad ideas that will tank the economy and flood the country with Spanish Waiters from the so-called EU, but we now have to deal with the accusations from Rees Mogg and his toady acolytes (some of whom post on NSC, and even on this thread) that Labour have no answers, no policies and no leadership.

And I can assure you that if by some miracle Labour do win the next GE the very last thing they will want to do is change the electoral system so they can never form a government again. Going cap in hand to the flibbertigibbet liberals or stark staring bonkers and useless greens is not my idea of governance.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Yes, but Jeremy Corbyn was the most popular leader ever. So a young person told me. And labour won all the arguments. That's why labour got the majority of the votes. Don't you see?

And now they are just tory lite.

That's why we need to get rid of first past the post, and vote for a coalition between the greens, liberals and a left wing labour party led by someone like Becca Wrong-Bailey.

Given that Jeremy Corbyn didn't support reforming the voting system, I'm not sure why you're conflating his intellectual immaturity with the position that any party winning a majority of the seats with just 43% of the vote is not representative.

 

[rogersix]

No-one's suggesting that the enquiry won't see all the communications about the Eat Out scheme, and it will be interesting to see if it made any difference (probably didn't, since the second wave wasn't restricted to just the UK, but it will be interesting to see - in 7 years' time if the enquiry's own implied timescale comes true!) What the enquiry is suggesting is that they need to see every message about anything on any subject. But the cabinet office has given full support to submitting all messages relevant to the pandemic.

How would we know that all the relevant messages have been submitted? You're not suggesting we trust them, are you?

 

[Scappa]

How would we know that all the relevant messages have been submitted? You're not suggesting we trust them, are you?

What could possibly go wrong?!

 

[TomandJerry]

Boris Johnson will provide unredacted WhatsApps to the Covid 19 Inquiry directly, he said in a letter to to the chairwoman on Friday.

“The government yesterday decided to take legal action. It was not my decision to do so,” wrote Johnson. “While I understand the government’s position, I am not willing to let my material become a test case for others when I am perfectly content for the inquiry to see it.”

Johnson said he no longer has physical access to his notebooks which were removed from his office by the Cabinet Office, and said he has requested for them to be shared with the Inquiry directly.