[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Surf's Up]

'We' ARE the ****wit idiots of Europe.

I stand corrected - you are absolutely right.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

We were told that because Sue Gray was just a civil servant with limited powers her "Report" would simply be a fact-finding mission, NOT an opinion piece with any weight.

How can a police enquiry necessitate the delay in publication of Grey's Report? She is simply telling Parliament what she was told by the people involved in the alleged parties.

Anything other than a 'Boris Not Guilty' verdict from the Police Enquiry is going to make the Met Police look useless at their job, which is to enforce the law of the land. Get wyour paintbrushes ready for the whitewash, 2023 Cressida Dick peerage / Damehood / OBE incoming.

And anyone else who hasnt yet asking for a refund of fines, every single penny should be paid back

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Sorry to come again with facts, but this is what Labour's policy was - it's not doubling down on a Remain position or campaigning to remain. It's literally what the majority of the country actually voted for in their choice of parties - a chance to have a final say in the outcome:

"Labour will give the people the final say on Brexit. Within three months of coming to power, a Labour government will secure a sensible deal. And within six months, we will put that deal to a public vote alongside the option to remain. A Labour government will implement whatever the people decide."

The only thing they ruled out was a "no deal" Brexit but then the Tories spent a lot of time ruling that out too.

I'm always hugely impressed when people say they knew what they were getting when they voted to Leave because they must have had greater foresight and understanding of issues like Northern Ireland than even the most ardent pro-Leave and most pessimistic pro-Remain figures had and incredible laser focus through the mixed messaging.

Your apology for ‘coming back with facts’ is a little patronizing. You have your interpretation of Labour policy. Mine is that they wanted a rerun of the Referendum to try to get a different result. This was Liberal policy before the election ie a Remain position. It was totally ridiculous to announce they would campaign against their own negotiated new deal. They lost. I did get what I wanted when I voted to leave. We left the EU. I would have voted the same way given the opportunity at any point in the past when the issues were entirely different.

 

[BBassic]

Says the man who seems to spend all day, every day on the Brexit thread

Now, come on, that's unfair.

He sometimes comes to the main board to jump into Brexit threads. Or football violence threads. Or whatever thing people are claiming as "wokey pokey" nonsense these days.

He's a multi-faceted poster. Unless it's anything to do with the actual game of football. Which he is surprisingly silent about.

 

[Machiavelli]

OK - appears confirmed now that Sue Gray report won't come out this week now, as a result of Met Police announcement. Unsure whether that is at Police request, or because #10 itself will withhold it. One source has said her investigation is still ongoing, so might indicate the delay is not due to police request.

Thing is, I'm not sure we're going to need that report now. I think Boris will be facing a no confidence vote before the police are done. The announcement this morning will be enough to tip the fence-sitters into action IMO.

This is the motivation behind me starting up the Sue Gray thread a week ago. He hasn't changed his position on Johnson, but Andrew Bridgen on WatO was very clear that you can't have a PM who is being investigated by the Met, and that 'the most important electorate' are currently his fellow Tory MPs.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I stand corrected - you are absolutely right.

And I didn't think you needed to limit yourself by saying we're the ****wits only only one continent

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

And anyone else who hasnt yet asking for a refund of fines, every single penny should be paid back

I think delay of the report should be enough to see major rebellion within the Tory Party and Boris forced out. It is also rather suspicious that the Met have only decided to investigate with the Grey report imminent.

 

[CheeseRolls]

This is the motivation behind me starting up the Sue Gray thread a week ago. He hasn't changed his position on Johnson, but Andrew Bridgen on WatO was very clear that you can't have a PM who is being investigated by the Met, and that 'the most important electorate' are currently his fellow Tory MPs.

It is a strange conflict of interest. Would a CEO of a bank for example, under police investigation be suspended until the investigation was concluded? What about a police chief, a council leader, a head teacher at a school? In each instance it would be a governance decision which would be taken out of the hands of the individual under investigation.

 

[ManOfSussex]

'We' ARE the ****wit idiots of Europe.

We have been for quite a while too. Nobody can come close to matching our levels of ****wittery.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

As I understand it the court didn’t annul Brexit. Presumably that means it isn’t against the law ?

As I explained it was an advisory referendum. If it was set as a mandatory referendum ie the government were impelled to carry it out, it would have been annulled because of the lawbreaking.
An advisory referendum is simply an opinion poll.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Your apology for ‘coming back with facts’ is a little patronizing. You have your interpretation of Labour policy. Mine is that they wanted a rerun of the Referendum to try to get a different result. This was Liberal policy before the election ie a Remain position. It was totally ridiculous to announce they would campaign against their own negotiated new deal. They lost. I did get what I wanted when I voted to leave. We left the EU. I would have voted the same way given the opportunity at any point in the past when the issues were entirely different.

As I said previously, Labour wanted a vote on the deal. As people have found out, Leave means many various forms, and nobody wanted the hard Brexit we now have. All the options could have been laid out, so musicians knew they could work abroad without separate visas for every country (something that has been altered since we left) and the fishing licences could have been solved without the 'show of strength' which achieved nothing because we issued the licences quietly afterwards without anyone noticing.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

It is a strange conflict of interest. Would a CEO of a bank for example, under police investigation be suspended until the investigation was concluded? What about a police chief, a council leader, a head teacher at a school? In each instance it would be a governance decision which would be taken out of the hands of the individual under investigation.

Richard Bacon may find himself having to apologise to the House for slandering Tony Blair, who was never questioned under caution.

[tweet]1485968267730640902[/tweet]

 

[WATFORD zero]

The point is that I voted to leave and had as much idea of the ramifications of leaving as you had about those of staying in. The status quo was never on offer. It is a constantly evolving institution. I can remember having exactly this discussion on the Brexit thread in 2016 but if you want to keep rehashing it I’m up for it.

Excellent.

As you know I have been constantly inviting you to the Brexit thread to get some meaningful discussion as to where we go from here, from someone who still backs Brexit, but you have always declined. We can now retire to the Brexit thread and leave this thread to get back on topic

https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?343854-The-Brexit-Thread/page12258

I've added a link in case you've forgotten were it is

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

As I said previously, Labour wanted a vote on the deal. As people have found out, Leave means many various forms, and nobody wanted the hard Brexit we now have. All the options could have been laid out, so musicians knew they could work abroad without separate visas for every country (something that has been altered since we left) and the fishing licences could have been solved without the 'show of strength' which achieved nothing because we issued the licences quietly afterwards without anyone noticing.

Labour undermined its own position by saying they would campaign against any subsequent deal. Therefore they had no leverage in the negotiations. You cannot send people into a room to negotiate when it is quite clear they do not want any deal to succeed. Ridiculous.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Labour undermined its own position by saying they would campaign against any subsequent deal. Therefore they had no leverage in the negotiations. You cannot send people into a room to negotiate when it is quite clear they do not want any deal to succeed. Ridiculous.

Labour didn't know what the **** they were doing then, they got totally tied in knots because they knew a large part of their electorate wanted Brexit. Didn't do them any good anyway as they lost all their red wall seats.

Brexit wasnt an issue along party lines which is a large part of how fuxked up it all got and why it's still fuxked. But it also means that any debate on whether we should have had a second referendum or whatever needs to be had without reference to political party positions.

If the government of the time was duty bound to implement the wishes of the electorate, as expressed in the referendum, whatever their personal positions, that should have also been the case as to the type of Brexit we got. But they didn't, the ERG lot manouevered the government into pursuing the hardest of Brexits, and they did it well. And here we are.

 

[Fat Boy Fat]

Am I mistaken, but is there not a perfectly good (sort of) Brexit thread elsewhere. I'm not sure, with the best will in the world that this thread was set up for more Remain/Remoan chat!

Now, about this birthday party. My wife had her sixtieth in lockdown and had the grand sum of 3 people at her "party" - coincidentally, we all live in the same house and were in full lockdown!

One rule for one, etc.

 

[Since1982]

Meantime now being reported that Met Police have no objections to the Grey report being published in full this week and are surprised that No 10 thinks otherwise. If true then maybe the lying charlatans strategy to kick the issue into the long grass while waiting for the police inquiry has been undermined - lets hope so.

 

[Gwylan]

Brexit wasnt an issue along party lines which is a large part of how fuxked up it all got and why it's still fuxked. But it also means that any debate on whether we should have had a second referendum or whatever needs to be had without reference to political party positions.

That's true but what is interesting is the effect that it had on voters. Tory Remain voters, by and large, stuck with the Tories while Labour Leave voters went heavily Conservative. The disappointed party was the Liberals who thought they'd mop up the former and a good proportion of Labour Remain voters too - a bad miscalculation on their part.

 

[Audax]

In an attempt to bring this thread back to topic:

It now appears that the Sue Gray report should be published, in full, this week. The Met have said they have no objection to it being released. various takes on what sounds like an evolving situation. Reading between the lines of the journo tweets and #10 spokesperson, it sounds like #10 wants to hold back as much as they can and is trying to find a convenient excuse, but everyone else is moving towards full release.

[tweet]1485993778041217025[/tweet]

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Am I mistaken, but is there not a perfectly good (sort of) Brexit thread elsewhere. I'm not sure, with the best will in the world that this thread was set up for more Remain/Remoan chat!

Now, about this birthday party. My wife had her sixtieth in lockdown and had the grand sum of 3 people at her "party" - coincidentally, we all live in the same house and were in full lockdown!

One rule for one, etc.

On one hand you're right, this is no place for Brexit discussion, although it did speak to how this still influences our loyalties on any political issue. On the other hand, there is definitely not a 'perfectly good' Brexit thread elsewhere, i won't go near that cluster fxck!!