[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Lever]

The thing that worries me most now about Boris's lies and Partygate is the acceptance by significant numbers of the British people.

The reaction of many on phone-ins and social media is "I'm bored of the story", "I'm over it", "there are far more important things in the news we should be focusing on". It's like they are now tolerant of a serial liar in charge of the nation. Day by day, Boris is dragging the nation's standards down so that what people find acceptable in a leader is basically turning up for work and telling them what they want to hear.

It's like a parent - who had previously stuck to guidelines - caving in while their kids do what they want, when they want, all the time. In Britain we had political standards that were more rigorous than those of those countries, and that gave us some sort of stable democracy and framework for government and accountability. That seems to be going out the window. Once gone, it is hard to re-establish.

...and that is the point. Most people are unwilling to accept being lied to, whatever their pov.

 

[jimhigham]

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God, I miss Green Wing!

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

This will delay it much longer, sadly. She now won’t be able to publish her report and findings as it will be deemed prejudicial to any police investigation…….so we’ll have to wait.

What are the chances of the police taking an age to investigate, and then finding ‘insufficient evidence to warrant charges’ I wonder…..by which time some other whataboutery will have deflected attention

Yep.

Not good.

Should have just let her publish it

Easy get out for him now of no charges stick.

“No law was broken”

 

[Gwylan]

I may be wrong, but I would argue that it wasn’t the population at large insisting on those individuals removal, despite the headlines of the time. I would argue that the establishment of the time found their actions unacceptable and the establishment successfully self-policed itself. It was unacceptable to the establishment for disgraced individuals to continue in positions of power.

I would argue that with laissez faire economics eventually comes laissez faire politics. Those who would (even in Thatcher’s time) have hoofed these individuals out, are now far more minded to let things run their natural course. To my mind, the change is less in the general public, but more in the attitudes of the gatekeepers of our institutions. They would prefer not to get involved unless their hand is absolutely forced.

OK, that's fair enough. I thought you were talking about government standards rather than the populations BUT I think there's been a change here too.

Remember back in the 90s when Major was facing a host of scandals: cash for questions, Aitken's perjury and a seemingly never-ending array of sexual shenanigans, the Tories were getting hammered in by-elections while Labour was enjoying a lead of approaching 30% in the polls - something that was reflected in the 1997 election. I'm not seeing anything like that. Yes, they've lost two by-election in the past 12 months - but there were peculiar local circumstances there. They actually gained Hartlepool, nearly gained Batley and Spen and easily hung on to Old Bexley.

So, the public of 25 to 30 years ago was very different to the one now - standards have certainly changed.

 

[ozzygull]

I never caught COVID or passed it on.

I know no one who has died from COVID or has been seriously ill from COVID.

People who I socialised with did so at their own free will. We knew what risks and decided what was best for us.

Go and find something else to be outraged about.

Well you got lucky then, I know three people who have died of covid.

My brother who had terminal brain cancer did not die of covid, but in the last year of his life we were not able to visit him.
My mum who was losing her son was not able to visit him or have anyone visit her. She is now in hospital because the mental decline she suffered during the lock downs and issolation.

All this because like me and millions of others we believed this was the best and for the greater good.

I am ****ing livid. The first party revelation was enough for me, when that woman on the podium laughing at us plebs that were gullible to belieive thier bullsh*t.

 

[Audax]

This will delay it much longer, sadly. She now won’t be able to publish her report and findings as it will be deemed prejudicial to any police investigation…….so we’ll have to wait.

What are the chances of the police taking an age to investigate, and then finding ‘insufficient evidence to warrant charges’ I wonder…..by which time some other whataboutery will have deflected attention

Not up on the legals here, but given this would be a fixed penalty notice situation rather than a full prosecution, does the issue of releasing the report potentially being prejudicial even come into play? Just by making this announcement now, and the way it's been announced, the Met have already said that the reports contents are damning.

Based on how Cressida Dick has announced this ... I actually think it's far more likely that fines will be issued than not. She's explained why they've now decided to investigate, and it's ... pretty damning, to be honest. From the Guardian live blog:

Some police officers were investigated after the fact for breaking Covid rules. And some high-profile people were investigated too.

She says these cases were “the most serious and flagrant” kind of breach.

Four conditions had to apply. There had to be evidence, she says.

She says those involved had to know they were committing an offence, the cases had to risk undermining the law, and there had to be little ambiguity about a reasonable defence.

She says the Met has a good relationship with the Cabinet Office. On the basis of what they have said, and on the basis of an assessment by the police, she says she can now confirm that the Met is investigating “a number of events that took place at Downing Street and Whitehall in the last two years in relation to potential breaches of Covid-19 regulations”.

When you read between the lines, Cressida Dick has already basically said they've got substantial reason to believe they'll be issuing fines.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

lets not forget our archaic political system would have avoided all this, if only representives agreed on a alternative that accepted the directly democratic referendum outcome on softer terms.

Well no, Johnson is free to rejoin the Single Market at any time. It would sort out his Northern Ireland Protocol issues immediately and give the rest of us the same better Brexit that Northern Ireland has.

In your own time, Johnson. *rolls eyes*.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

The evidence says that they did, and that they won the argument despite losing the election. At the last election more people (56%) voted for parties offering the public either a final say on the Brexit deal (i.e. Brexit will happen but we can choose what sort of Brexit), or for parties offering another referendum. Despite statements to the contrary there has never been actual evidence of any majority support for the Tory/Boris version of Brexit in the same way there is actual evidence the majority didn't want it - not support from those who were Remainers, or from many UKIP-ers or other vote Leavers. I've said it elsewhere, I only know two people who publicly stated they voted Leave - one believed the messages we'd stay in the single market and is devastated by what happened, the other believed the messages we'd not lose our freedom of movement and he's similarly upset. That's two of millions who each had a different understanding of what it meant because the messages about what Brexit actually was were different from what happened, however much revisionism goes on, which is why a final say was important to so many, as shown by the votes at the election.

Only our archaic electoral system means the Tories got to deliver their version of Brexit which by any measure of popular support didn't win the argument at all - it substantially lost it. Winning an election in our system doesn't mean most of the country supports you - they clearly don't in this case, hence the anomaly that the majority didn't vote Tory, and similarly that Lib Dems got the same number of extra votes as the Tories while losing a seat as the Tories picked up dozens more. The most recent polls about Brexit have shown dissatisfaction amongst those who voted for Brexit and those who didn't - in years to come that the Tories didn't listen to the electorate which very clearly rejected the Tory version (going on number of votes - the purest measure we can use) will very much be their own stunning own goal. We'll rejoin the EU in all but name in the next three Parliaments I'm certain. It'll be called something else, not membership, and both sides will wrap it up as a success because it's politically expedient for both sides to do so, but to all intents and purposes we'll be back in to a greater extent than we're out.

Unfortunately not relevant. The parties all understood the electoral system in 2019 and therefore knew which policies they needed to adopt to win the seats that would have delivered victory. Labour and the Liberals chose instead to preach to the converted. If you want a different electoral system that’s fine but you cannot expect to gain power if you ignore currently existing electoral reality.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I never caught COVID or passed it on.

I know no one who has died from COVID or has been seriously ill from COVID.

People who I socialised with did so at their own free will. We knew what risks and decided what was best for us.

Go and find something else to be outraged about.

You don't know that. Many COVID cases in 2020 were asymptomatic and tests were only done on people who were seriously ill in hospital. You could easily have given it to someone you socialized with who then gave it to someone vulnerable.

It seems you are just another Tory for whom the rules do not apply and who doesn't understand the implications and hypocrisy of his actions.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

So basically you voted for leave but had absolutely no understanding of what the ramifications could be. Unbelievable Jeff.


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No, I voted Leave knowing there were lots of different pathways, just as there were for staying in. There are a number of competing visions for the future of the EU but I don’t try to belittle your voting decision just because you don’t know which is the final destination.

 

[Audax]

OK - appears confirmed now that Sue Gray report won't come out this week now, as a result of Met Police announcement. Unsure whether that is at Police request, or because #10 itself will withhold it. One source has said her investigation is still ongoing, so might indicate the delay is not due to police request.

Thing is, I'm not sure we're going to need that report now. I think Boris will be facing a no confidence vote before the police are done. The announcement this morning will be enough to tip the fence-sitters into action IMO.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Met Police now investigating lockdown law breaches at No 10 and Whitehall.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60123850

Ah yes, the Met with Bas Javid who is the Deputy Assistant Commisioner. The brother of Sajid Javid.

The same Met who has two convicted police rapists, one a murderer, who used the Covid laws to kidnap his poor victim. The same Met who used Covid laws to go to Clapham Common to assault women (in the open air) for holding a vigil.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

To develop a positive vision of Brexit does rather require one to believe that it wasn't always going to line the pockets of a very small number of rich people whilst making the rest of us significantly poorer and less free. If one party tells everyone in the country that they're going to get their own ice cream factory, it wouldn't seem unreasonable to expect the other parties to say that actually we won't, rather than telling the electorate that they had the best ice cream recipes.

Perhaps senior Remainers in Labour and the Liberals who shared the view you have outlined should have stood aside and allowed colleagues who accepted the Referendum result to set policy instead. We will never know.

 

[dazzer6666]

I never caught COVID or passed it on.

I know no one who has died from COVID or has been seriously ill from COVID.

People who I socialised with did so at their own free will. We knew what risks and decided what was best for us.

Go and find something else to be outraged about.

Absolutely no way you can know you never caught it - or passed it on. Asymptomatic infection and transmission is extremely common. It’s assumptions like this that have massively exacerbated the problem over the last 2 years.

 

[Randy McNob]

I do want what I voted for. Perhaps the other parties should have gone into the election with a positive vision of their own version of Brexit so as to give people a choice ? Stunning own goal never acknowledged by Remainers.

But Brexit has to be a good idea to begin with for that argument to work

The people that won pretended it was a great idea using populist ideology, the people that lost explained the uncomfortable realities (see below)

So you are spot on - positivity beat reality

 

[Thunder Bolt]

lets not forget our archaic political system would have avoided all this, if only representives agreed on a alternative that accepted the directly democratic referendum outcome on softer terms.

Theresa May tried several times but Johnson and the ERG Tories defeated her each time. She ended up resigning because of them.
Johnson then removed the whip from 21 democratically elected Tory MPs.

 

[Berty23]

I never caught COVID or passed it on.

I know no one who has died from COVID or has been seriously ill from COVID.

People who I socialised with did so at their own free will. We knew what risks and decided what was best for us.

Go and find something else to be outraged about.

Wow. You don’t know that.

Do you drink drive? Is that okay as long as you don’t knowingly kill someone?

 

[TomandJerry]

Sue Gray will not publish her inquiry until the Met Police has concluded its investigation into alleged criminal activity in Downing Street, according to sources. The Met Police confirmed that Gray had handed over her preliminary findings.

A Cabinet Office spokesman said work would continue on the inquiry. “The investigation being carried out by Sue Gray is continuing,” the spokesman said. “There is in ongoing contact with the Metropolitan police service.”

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[Deportivo Seagull]

I never caught COVID or passed it on.

guesswork on your part. You could have been asymptomatic and then passed it on.


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[Neville's Breakfast]

But Brexit has to be a good idea to begin with for that argument to work

The people that won pretended it was a great idea using populist ideology, the people that lost explained the uncomfortable realities (see below)

So you are spot on - positivity beat reality

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Like it or not there was a debate to be had. I am not telling you that you are wrong, just that I disagree with you. Perhaps if more people of your political persuasion did similar you would win more elections. Or just stay as you are. I don’t mind.