[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Machiavelli]

i dont see it would mean that, maybe you can show why (it is an interesting point)? money supply is from the Bank of England not government.
i did say a target, there are good reasons for running some debt like long term investment.

For two reasons:
1, you're assuming that the BoE and Treasury are utterly distinct entities, they overlap
2, money is not a 'thing', it's a relation, as soon as money (or credit) is created, so is debt.

 

[MJsGhost]

I agree it's a slightly crude yardstick, however, Cameron came to power on a ticket to reduce the deficit and used that to inflict 10 years of austerity on us.

Also, last November we spent 7.3bn on interest payments - a record. To put that into perspective it would cost us 4bn to give Nurses and other NHS workers the pay rise they need - almost HALF the interest payment for JUST ONE MONTH. The cost of Tory failure

Don't get me wrong, I don't think spending billions on interest is a good thing, I just don't think that graph supports your point that the debt going up correlates with the Tories coming into power.

 

[Randy McNob]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think spending billions on interest is a good thing, I just don't think that graph supports your point that the debt going up correlates with the Tories coming into power.

Of course it does. you can debate on the threshold of where the impact of Conservative policy was actually was felt from after the point they came to power but the current % is around 90% - 100%, far higher than before they were elected - on a manifesto that it would decrease

 

[The Clamp]

I imagine the Tory bastards gave up on trying to make any improvements to anything a long, long time ago.

Their entire objective is to hang onto power for as long as possible to suckle on the taxpayers teat until they are wrenched from the breast with the nipple clenched between their teeth.

Build a bonfire. Throw the fuckers on.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Of course it does. you can debate on the threshold of where the impact of Conservative policy was actually was felt from after the point they came to power but the current % is around 90% - 100%, far higher than before they were elected - on a manifesto that it would decrease

View attachment 161854

If I look purely at that graph, I'd read it as the deficit increasing significantly around 2008 (financial crisis), being gradually reduced up to 2015-ish, and then exploding again around 2019/20 (covid).
Whether the policies used to reduce the deficit between 2010 and 2015 were the most effective possible is another debate entirely, but the graph does show it reduced over those 5years.

 

[beorhthelm]

For two reasons:
1, you're assuming that the BoE and Treasury are utterly distinct entities, they overlap
2, money is not a 'thing', it's a relation, as soon as money (or credit) is created, so is debt.

fair point 1. point 2, i have a silver crown coin that says money can be a "thing". i get the money is debt/credit, and can see where that could lead. not sure government debt (vs private debt) must exist for money supply to exist.

 

[sparkie]

The Covid Enquiry is centering on Eat Out to Help Out with criticism for Sunak as Chancellor. I criticised it on the Covid thread and was called stupid (or similar).

Eat Out to Die Out was a disaster. They should have just given the money to the restaurants directly and not actually required people to go and pass on and catch Covid in them.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think spending billions on interest is a good thing, I just don't think that graph supports your point that the debt going up correlates with the Tories coming into power.

In the UK, our situation is dictated by the global economy. The financial crash was caused by sub prime lending - in the US.

Governments here can make things a bit better or a bit worse.

The tories grasped the opportunity offered by the crash to cut public spending (nasty socialist public spending) and blame it on Labour (when in fact Gordon Brown made the best possible fix after the crash and got no credit - because he isn't a grandstanding self-serving twat).

Brown was flawed in other ways, but the tories made hay with a chance to turn back the clock.

 

[rogersix]

Man of the people, Sunak, enjoys another trip in an RAF helicopter. As he himself said a fortnight ago, people are over caring how rich someone is….

Sunak takes RAF chopper to Dover, just over an hour away by train | Rishi Sunak | The Guardian

Prime minister shows his fondness for helicopters again a week after flying in one to his Yorkshire constituency

amp.theguardian.com

It’s truly remarkable how much he is over caring how poor people are.

Use the bloody lot of them as shark bait.

it may be a bit of a no no for him to be seen using the train atm

 

[The Clamp]

it may be a bit of a no no for him to be seen using the train atm

How so? And why not a car?

Or the Megabus?

 

[Half Time Pies]

fair point 1. point 2, i have a silver crown coin that says money can be a "thing". i get the money is debt/credit, and can see where that could lead. not sure government debt (vs private debt) must exist for money supply to exist.

It does because of the simple accountancy need to balance the books, banks can only create new money (liability of the bank) by creating a loan/ debt (asset of the bank). This is the same as the Bank of England as it is for commercial banks.

 

[Gwylan]

Barely anyone, other than a dwindling hardcore, will own up to voting tory, but the sussex area will still look like a sea of blue on a map the day after the next election.

I'm not sure of that. I'd be willing to bet a shiny British pound that Lewes and Eastbourne will go Lib Dem. And I think there's a very good chance that Worthing East and Crawley both go Labour (and possibly Worthing West and Hastings & Rye too)

 

[rogersix]

How so? And why not a car?

Or the Megabus?

helicopters are cool

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I'm not sure of that. I'd be willing to bet a shiny British pound that Lewes and Eastbourne will go Lib Dem. And I think there's a very good chance that Worthing East and Crawley both go Labour (and possibly Worthing West and Hastings & Rye too)

That still leaves a sea of mid sussex as well as Kent and Surrey which will look blue. Even when Blair was winning stupid majorities, many of those seats were rock solid tory

 

[The Clamp]

helicopters are cool

Sadly, for a dingus like Sunak, this may be his actual reasoning.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

it may be a bit of a no no for him to be seen using the train atm

His train would have passed through Faversham, and there is a risk I may have been on the platform, boing. Boo. BOO!

 

[Machiavelli]

fair point 1. point 2, i have a silver crown coin that says money can be a "thing". i get the money is debt/credit, and can see where that could lead. not sure government debt (vs private debt) must exist for money supply to exist.

@Half Time Pies has explained it better but, just to try an alternative route: your first two statements re point 2 are very much in tension with one another. I say tension, because they don't contradict one another: the thingness of your crown is obvious; but in order to create that thing there was a parallel entry on the other side of the ledger sheet.

 

[Gwylan]

That still leaves a sea of mid sussex as well as Kent and Surrey which will look blue. Even when Blair was winning stupid majorities, many of those seats were rock solid tory

I think some of those 'safe' Tory seats are going to disappear too. Raab has already accepted that his Esher seat is doomed, Hunt could be in trouble too. I can also see Woking going yellow. There may be some big shocks in Surrey and Kent if Lab and LibDems could get tactical voting sorted.

We're in a different era from Blair: the Tory party has changed completely and a lot of Tory voters in these constituencies have tended to be more pro-remain than the rest of the party. There's also been a demographic shift as more younger families are moving out of London: just look what's happened in Worthing.

I'm not saying that Sussex, Kent and Surrey are going to be pattterned yellow and red, but there's definitely going to be less blue

 

[Thunder Bolt]

 

[beorhthelm]

It does because of the simple accountancy need to balance the books, banks can only create new money (liability of the bank) by creating a loan/ debt (asset of the bank). This is the same as the Bank of England as it is for commercial banks.

understand that, but this is seperate from the government, even accounting for view the Treasury and BoE seperation is tenuous. i have read various BoE papers on money creation. this is where the MMT lobby go off and say therefore all spending is created from bank actions, so we can spend infinite money.

@Half Time Pies has explained it better but, just to try an alternative route: your first two statements re point 2 are very much in tension with one another. I say tension, because they don't contradict one another: the thingness of your crown is obvious; but in order to create that thing there was a parallel entry on the other side of the ledger sheet.

the other side of the balance sheet does not need to be government borrowing. in BoE and commercial lending it isn't.