[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Wardy's twin]

I disagree. Done properly, it can work. I wouldn't argue that the Australian system is perfect, but it is a system that works and it does incorporate elements of means testing. It's been a long time since I was directly exposed to it, but it doesn't result in people avoiding health care and it doesn't price people out.

For starters, the example you provide of the means testing you experience: I absolutely agree with you that that is a load of BS. Means testing should always be based on an individuals' *current* ability to pay, not on some historical ability. It should also be based on current liquid assets - I disagree with including the notional on-paper value of a house (for example), which I believe the Aussie system does look at.

There are genuine flaws with the 100% taxation based funding system that the UK uses. For starters, it's far too easy for those with the funds to pay for clever accountants to (legally) avoid.

Ultimately, though ... I'm flexible. We all want the same end product: a robust, well run, efficient health service that ensures that everyone has affordable (ideally free at point of access), easy access to health care where everyone pays a fair share into making that happen. Whether that's done purely through taxation, or other means, I'm not that fussed. But on the evidence of the last 10 years or so (and having a wife who works in the NHS and seen it all from the inside) I very much doubt either party will have the political fortitude to do it purely through taxation - which means looking at alternative options.

There are genuine flaws with the 100% taxation based funding system that the UK uses. For starters, it's far too easy for those with the funds to pay for clever accountants to (legally) avoid. I don't think many would disagree with that statement but what we should do is fix that problem , not create another.

 

[nicko31]

The last 2 years is a pretty good indicator of what happens when the private organisations get involved with health i.e. the huge amounts of profit made on PPE by individuals and don't get me started on the pharma companies exploiting people in a bad position.

The NHS is far from perfect (have spent 3 years in close attention) but the principle is right and it needs improving. There is waste , incredible amounts, but its a very large organisation and hard to control at times and even harder when its given a battering by government and puts people in charge to run as a short term business rather than a long term process e.g. recruitment of doctors & nurses should be much more structured and tied into the education process.

There are examples where private money helps the NHS , the Royal Marsden is a great example of this but the key point is its not there to make a profit....

A good start would have been to get PPE from NHS vendors that actually supply PPE and get NHS procurement to run the show, not government.

Individuals exploited this to reward their mates and make a fast buck. We ended up with huge amounts of defective material and massively inflated prices paid to dodgy bros with little trading history

 

[Audax]

I don't think many would disagree with that statement but what we should do is fix that problem , not create another.

Oh absolutely, would love to see the tax system fixed so that everyone pays their fair share. Not sure if that's actually possible. Would love to see a government have a proper go at it though.

Back in Australia had an example very close to home. My dad, in the RAAF, earning enough to get by on but not so much as to be rich enough to hire an accountant. Earning enough to be above all of the thresholds for things like additional child support to pay for school expenses etc. One of my uncles, on the other hand, owning a highly successful business, able to hire a skillful accountant, and thus able to show the tax man a very minimal income tax profile and qualify for all of the government handouts despite being far better off than we ever were. (Note: no blame attached to my uncle. Get on very well with him and his family, and everything they did was legal at the time. They just had the means to be able to exploit all the loopholes and we didn't).

 

[Bodian]

To return to the original purpose of the thread...

[tweet]1496400910695768069[/tweet]

It also seems that questionnaire was effectively an interview under caution. So the PM is under caution from the police. What a wonderful place to be in.

The questions in the questionnaire seem pretty bland and look easy to answer in a way that avoids anything incriminating. https://www.itv.com/news/2022-02-22/revealed-itv-news-obtains-leaked-police-partygate-questionnaire

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

A system funded by compulsory health insurance would not change anything with regard to people paying for something they don’t use. That’s the whole point of insurance. I am fundamentally pro NHS Harry. I just don’t think it has to be funded in its current way. That doesn’t mean I want it destroyed. Far from it. Germany is not a right wing country yet does things differently so you cannot dismiss all objection as emanating from dark corners of the Tory party. Nothing will change though and we will continue with all of the problems you describe precisely because of the ideological warfare of the two opposing binary views. It all just becomes another platform for insult. The thread has moved off in a different direction from that originally intended and I am partly to blame for that for which I apologize.

No worries. I'm happy as long as it isn't 'defunded' or flogged off. Yes, there may well be different ways of funding it. It won't get any less costly to run until the internal market structure is jettisoned, however. We have both explored off topic issues. It's the way it goes

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I disagree. Done properly, it can work. I wouldn't argue that the Australian system is perfect, but it is a system that works and it does incorporate elements of means testing. It's been a long time since I was directly exposed to it, but it doesn't result in people avoiding health care and it doesn't price people out.

For starters, the example you provide of the means testing you experience: I absolutely agree with you that that is a load of BS. Means testing should always be based on an individuals' *current* ability to pay, not on some historical ability. It should also be based on current liquid assets - I disagree with including the notional on-paper value of a house (for example), which I believe the Aussie system does look at.

There are genuine flaws with the 100% taxation based funding system that the UK uses. For starters, it's far too easy for those with the funds to pay for clever accountants to (legally) avoid.

Ultimately, though ... I'm flexible. We all want the same end product: a robust, well run, efficient health service that ensures that everyone has affordable (ideally free at point of access), easy access to health care where everyone pays a fair share into making that happen. Whether that's done purely through taxation, or other means, I'm not that fussed. But on the evidence of the last 10 years or so (and having a wife who works in the NHS and seen it all from the inside) I very much doubt either party will have the political fortitude to do it purely through taxation - which means looking at alternative options.

It is possible to change the health system in many different ways but all the ducks need to be lined up. As [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] indcates, this country we seem to be zen masters at not lining up ducks. A cynic would argue this is done deliberately to discredit certain systems (i.e., the socialist ones) but I am more inclined to blame it on carelessness and lack of accountability. I sit on on several committees involved in NHS management, and I am already seeing one 'health partner' trust bidding to take over another. It's cowboy country, and it will only get worse if more market mores are introduced.

So, I have not bothered to list all the good aspects of the NHS, but I have listed the ones that should be fixed. With that, there is no need to fundamentally alter the system. That's what 'they' want us to do.

I am open to change but the solutions I have seen offered all seem to be akin to the ones you get from mates down the pub when moaning about the missus, i.e., 'get yourself a new bird, mate'.

 

[Berty23]

Imagine spending ages telling footballers like Rashford that they should stay out of politics and then suggest footballers and clubs that they should take it upon themselves to refuse to play in a match in a country launching a war when you have far more powerful tools at your disposal and you are the Erm….government.

 

[Audax]

It is possible to change the health system in many different ways but all the ducks need to be lined up. As [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] indcates, this country we seem to be zen masters at not lining up ducks. A cynic would argue this is done deliberately to discredit certain systems (i.e., the socialist ones) but I am more inclined to blame it on carelessness and lack of accountability. I sit on on several committees involved in NHS management, and I am already seeing one 'health partner' trust bidding to take over another. It's cowboy country, and it will only get worse if more market mores are introduced.

So, I have not bothered to list all the good aspects of the NHS, but I have listed the ones that should be fixed. With that, there is no need to fundamentally alter the system. That's what 'they' want us to do.

I am open to change but the solutions I have seen offered all seem to be akin to the ones you get from mates down the pub when moaning about the missus, i.e., 'get yourself a new bird, mate'.

Don't get me started on the trust system. My firm opinion: that's one of the massive flaws in the NHS. While I can see where there might be some advantages in allowing for localised decisions to be made instead of blindly following national guidance, there are too many problems created that outweigh the benefits IMO. Especially for those patients who get transferred across trusts during treatment and the issues that arise from that in terms of moving patient notes etc.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Don't get me started on the trust system. My firm opinion: that's one of the massive flaws in the NHS. While I can see where there might be some advantages in allowing for localised decisions to be made instead of blindly following national guidance, there are too many problems created that outweigh the benefits IMO. Especially for those patients who get transferred across trusts during treatment and the issues that arise from that in terms of moving patient notes etc.

'Trust' is one of those Orwellian words that emerged after the start of the 80s.....probably around 1984. Fancy that!

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I did and ordered two lots last week

Just in case you need anymore, the flow test kits are now available on the Government website again.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

[tweet]1497191691077492756[/tweet]

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

[tweet]1497191691077492756[/tweet]

The contrast to the heroic Ukrainian President is heartbreaking.

 

[Hugo Rune]

The contrast to the heroic Ukrainian President is heartbreaking.

If the Russians were invading the UK, I suspect Johnson & Sunak would have flown to the US long ago, cowardly trying to run the country remotely from the bunker below the White House. Pair of ***s.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

If the Russians were invading the UK, I suspect Johnson & Sunak would have flown to the US long ago, cowardly trying to run the country remotely from the bunker below the White House. Pair of ***s.

I suspect that you are right.
After all he did run into a fridge and hide and that was because he was being a difficult question.

 

[Baker lite]

And while the whole world looks on in horror at the Russian atrocities in Ukraine, the head tilters are still getting upset about a birthday cake. Really?.

 

[Hugo Rune]

And while the whole world looks on in horror at the Russian atrocities in Ukraine, the head tilters are still getting upset about a birthday cake. Really?.

I think people have moved on to the £1.8m donation by a Kremlin insider to the Conservative party, the single biggest donation from a female in the party’s history.

 

[Bodian]

And while the whole world looks on in horror at the Russian atrocities in Ukraine, the head tilters are still getting upset about a birthday cake. Really?.

Most, if not all, of us are going about our normal jobs and business - with it's usual pleasures and annoyances. I daresay we'll all be watching football this afternoon.

Life does happen on multiple planes - it's quite okay to be discussing, and getting annoyed, about two different things at once.

Police work and the courts haven't shut down.

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

The contrast to the heroic Ukrainian President is heartbreaking.

I was thinking exactly the same. All those Tories and Brexiters who love to bang on about the Blitz spirit and WWII would be running for the hills, or their tax havens in the Caribbean.

 

[Since1982]

I was thinking exactly the same. All those Tories and Brexiters who love to bang on about the Blitz spirit and WWII would be running for the hills, or their tax havens in the Caribbean.

As somebody said, we've spent 6 years fighting the EU while supporting Putin and his mates - we picked the wrong fight to have.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

And while the whole world looks on in horror at the Russian atrocities in Ukraine, the head tilters are still getting upset about a birthday cake. Really?.

Don’t be a prick. The question of Russian money funding the Brexit campaign has always been there. It was pushed under the carpet by Boris the prick because it was apparently ‘fake news’ …. Birds and roosts spring to mind.
It light of recent events you can view Brexit as a devide and conquer strategy for Putin.
Any journo with a modicum of intelligence will be over this like a rash.

Parties at Downing Street are the least of his worries.


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