[Football] Tinpot Ultras....

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

I think he is a very interesting, and clever guy. I also believe he recognises his white heritage. He does quite a lot of work with young people, and employs young people.
Along with writing etc. I learned more about African history in a hour from him than in all my years of school. I dont think he considers it a 'struggle' particularly, but he does poiint out truths, that some people were not aware of, or didnt want to be aware of.

OK but I think there's another issue here.

I'm working with loads of Black Nurses at the moment in East London and we talk about this stuff a lot.

Most of them, men and women, who come from a Christian tradition (West Indian or African) and the usual comment is that it's rare for them to experience any racism towards them from white colleagues but there is a lot of antipathy between them and the Asian Muslim community.

Oddly, white vs black tension has eased significantly as more Muslims enter the picture and tensions there increase.

My point is that racism is a moving target. Culture rather than race is widely seen as the emerging battlefield. Black British are far more integrated and there is much less tension but we see an alarming rise in Antisemitism. But if you look behind the headlines, which imply this is predominantly between white Brits and Jews, it's actually between Muslims and Jews.

It's very confusing and badly reported.

 

[daveinprague]

OK but I think there's another issue here.

I'm working with loads of Black Nurses at the moment in East London and we talk about this stuff a lot.

Most of them, men and women, who come from a Christian tradition (West Indian or African) and the usual comment is that it's rare for them to experience any racism towards them from white colleagues but there is a lot of antipathy between them and the Asian Muslim community.

Oddly, white vs black tension has eased significantly as more Muslims enter the picture and tensions there increase.

My point is that racism is a moving target. Culture rather than race is widely seen as the emerging battlefield. Black British are far more integrated and there is much less tension but we see an alarming rise in Antisemitism. But if you look behind the headlines, which imply this is predominantly between white Brits and Jews, it's actually between Muslims and Jews.

It's very confusing and badly reported.

Ive got a friend from Zimbabwe who is a nurse, and yes, but like you say, thats more of a Christian v Muslim thing rather than race.
Just listened to this, and he talks about how racism has changed in the UK, for the better mostly.
http://www.mixedracestudies.org/?tag=akala

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

racism is something that is, these days, found in areas where either there are very few migrants of other races, or where the incoming culture varies widely from that found here.

I just rarely see white on black racism these days...although I know it's there..but there is a lot of tension between Muslims and pretty much everyone who isn't a Muslim.

 

[alfredmizen]

I've never quite understood this as an argument, the whole 'if its so bad go elsewhere' argument. Whilst one place can be bad, it can also be good, it can also be home. I don't like living with my parents again but sadly it's the best I can manage in my current situation - it doesn't mean I can't dislike it, or be critical of it.

are you critical of it to them ?

 

[Easy 10]

How did this thread veer onto a debate about racism ? I thought it was a discussion about the embarrassing tragic masked no-life evening craftshop DINLOWS up the road.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

are you critical of it to them ?

That's a good point well made.

If your situation means you must rely on the help of others you don't typically repay them by constantly telling them they need to change their whole house because their carpet offends you.

 

[Grombleton]

are you critical of it to them ?

There's an awareness of my displeasure at the situation, because communication is important - in my situation it isn't their fault, but I can still voice my displeasure, just in a constructive manner and continue to work to change that.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

There's an awareness of my displeasure at the situation, because communication is important - in my situation it isn't their fault, but I can still voice my displeasure, just in a constructive manner and continue to work to change that.

So you wouldn't stick a big tower on the roof and start calling your mates to prayer at 5am?

 

[Grombleton]

So you wouldn't stick a big tower on the roof and start calling your mates to prayer at 5am?

I think the point is being taken out of context slightly here - whilst my current situation differs in scale from say, the one Akala is describing, it doesn't mean that displeasure can't be voiced and that change can't be sought, right?

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

How did this thread veer onto a debate about racism ? I thought it was a discussion about the embarrassing tragic masked no-life evening craftshop DINLOWS up the road.

Exactly my thoughts! Can't be arsed to read all the crap on the thread - some people really have got too much time on their hands or just want debate for the sake of debate that achieves what at the end of the day? It's an obscure Internet forum, what are people hoping to achieve? Winning an online debate no one cares about against another person with too much time on their hands? Hardly a great moral victory is it! (I appreciate that that is 85% of what happens on here on an average day)

Back on track, I was thrilled to see many non-participants in the Holmesdale flag display, especially towards the left side of the stand.

 

[Klaas]

The only problem I have with that Akala bloke is that he is mixed heritage and, if he is Jamaican, this means his White component is likely British...but...he identifies only as a black man.

What does he suggest that we do about white boys falling behind all other ethnicities in school and that, as a black guy, he benefits from positive discrimination when applying for jobs where this applies?

He is a black man. He has black skin. It amazes me people trot this out. You think the racists stop to check whether anyone with dark skin is actually mixed race? Suggesting he has things better because of the colour of his skin is stretching it a bit I think. And he often talks about the working classes, and is very pro active in education. But I assume you know these things about him?

 

[Phat Baz 68]

Accompanied by the worst attempt at " scratching " EVER !

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

Right AAAAAANYWAY. The thing with these ultras.....

I find it admirable that a group of fans want to create an atmosphere and they do just that. No knocking it. I mean, it's not as loud as everyone seems to make out. But fair play - there's a group of them who don't stop singing for most of the game.

But, the whole idea of this ultras culture is so forced. It's definitely an identity. But it's not THEIR identity. Hearing a bunch of South Londoners chanting like their Napoli's finest is just... weird. And I think most other fans think the same.

I love that picture of them with the Students/Teachers banner from a few years back. Nobody was wearing black. Now, all of a sudden, this anti-modern-football, anti-establishment gang of working class folk trying to get the corporate scum out of our game have a stricter dress code than the 1901 club.

Basically, their singing section has decided to dress and act like ultras. They get praise from Sky Sports because Sky Sports likes to pigeonhole each club to give them something to talk about.

They talk about the big clubs facing eachother, manager vs. manager, player/manager disputes, transfers etc. The lower clubs like us, they slap a tag on and that's all they talk about. We've got a lifelong fan as chairman and made it from the bottom of the league. Burnley is a passionate town. Huddersfield and Bournemouth are the plucky minnows, Swansea have a good-footballing philosophy, The Hawthorns is a loud ground when it gets going, Stoke on a cold, wet Tuesday night and Palace have ultras.

That's why they've got a reputation. It's not that loud, they're not that impressive. But they're a thing. A forced, annoying... thing.

 

[Motogull]

I find it admirable that a group of fans want to create an atmosphere and they do just that. No knocking it. I mean, it's not as loud as everyone seems to make out. But fair play - there's a group of them who don't stop singing for most of the game.

But, the whole idea of this ultras culture is so forced. It's definitely an identity. But it's not THEIR identity. Hearing a bunch of South Londoners chanting like their Napoli's finest is just... weird. And I think most other fans think the same.

Yup. Then you take it full circle and go back to the first post which was a fair swipe at the self-indulgent need to make a little film. Empty beer glasses? No, me neither.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

He is a black man. He has black skin. It amazes me people trot this out. You think the racists stop to check whether anyone with dark skin is actually mixed race? Suggesting he has things better because of the colour of his skin is stretching it a bit I think. And he often talks about the working classes, and is very pro active in education. But I assume you know these things about him?

Don't be ridiculous.

If my mum is French, which she is, and my dad is from the Shetlands, which he is, I could describe myself as "mixed heritage" and man the barricades for an SNCF strike or for Scottish fishing rights.

Both communities would spot me as a fake within five minutes...unless you think that you have to look French or Scottish to count.

Your argument demeans you.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

He is a black man. He has black skin. It amazes me people trot this out. You think the racists stop to check whether anyone with dark skin is actually mixed race? Suggesting he has things better because of the colour of his skin is stretching it a bit I think. And he often talks about the working classes, and is very pro active in education. But I assume you know these things about him?

I know he's a man, like me, of mixed heritage.

I'm not sure about you.

 

[Klaas]

Don't be ridiculous.

If my mum is French, which she is, and my dad is from the Shetlands, which he is, I could describe myself as "mixed heritage" and man the barricades for an SNCF strike or for Scottish fishing rights.

Both communities would spot me as a fake within five minutes...unless you think that you have to look French or Scottish to count.

Your argument demeans you.

That's just waffle. He is self evidently a black man, the proof is right before your eyes.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

That's just waffle. He is self evidently a black man, the proof is right before your eyes.

He's a black man and a white man.

He is of the mind that only his black component matters to him. That's OK, he can call himself what he wants. If he took the view that he is British, which I do, then it shouldn't matter.

 

[Klaas]

He's a black man and a white man.

He is of the mind that only his black component matters to him.

The first sentence is nonsense. Clearly.

And what is it that he has said that makes you think he is only interested in his black component?

 

[TypicalPalace]

Hey lads, stumbled across this nice little article. Not really HF related but thought id mention it in case you missed it

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/crystal-palace-fans-are-the-lifeblood-of-english-football