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[Albion] Time to change Tactics



sussex_guy2k2

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2014
4,079
RDZ’s problem is that he’s still picking an attacking system that only works if he has March, Mitoma and Pedro available. I have no problem with being attacking, but if your three best attacking players are unavailable then it would make sense to be pragmatic and set up a bit more defensively.

The last time we played well against a decent team (I.e ignore Sheff U and Palace) was Spurs at home, and that was mostly because it was a basketball game with two managers happy to play ridiculously wide open football. Before that? Marseille at home with Mitoma and Pedro playing.

I’m genuinely starting to worry he hasn’t got an answer to this issue, which isn’t the best reflection on his adaptability and pragmatism, but nor is it a great reflection on the club’s recruitment for him. The failure to get a proper winger in January which his system so desperately needs, alongside needing (since the summer) a duel-winning, ground covering defensive midfielder who is ready for this level of football (unfortunately not yet Baleba) massively impacts us.

RDZ is mostly at fault for recent performances, but he hasn’t been handed a particularly balanced squad where his lynchpin positions are prioritised, and of course we’ve been brutally unlucky with injuries.
This in a nutshell.

It’s the thing stopping him from being that top level coach he should be.

Sticking to Plan A works when you’re at a Man City, an Arsenal or a Liverpool, but when you’re at our level you have to adapt to the opposition and be ready to be pragmatic. He’s not yet reached that level of maturity as a coach.
 




dwayne

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
16,264
London
This in a nutshell.

It’s the thing stopping him from being that top level coach he should be.

Sticking to Plan A works when you’re at a Man City, an Arsenal or a Liverpool, but when you’re at our level you have to adapt to the opposition and be ready to be pragmatic. He’s not yet reached that level of maturity as a coach.
Having a plan b is a pretty basic fundamental of being a top level coach. RDZ has been around a while I can't see him reaching the upper echelons of management and being successful and winning stuff. Interested to see where he goes next.

Lots of people slagging him off in the stands yesterday.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,458
Hove
This in a nutshell.

It’s the thing stopping him from being that top level coach he should be.

Sticking to Plan A works when you’re at a Man City, an Arsenal or a Liverpool, but when you’re at our level you have to adapt to the opposition and be ready to be pragmatic. He’s not yet reached that level of maturity as a coach.
West Ham are a pragmatic low block team and were in a relegation battle last season with a £400m squad and double our wage bill. This season they’ve arguably had more luck than any side in the league.

Pinch yourselves because despite selling some unbelievable talent, and having our most injury hit season in the PL, we’re top half and safe. Not the goal, but not half bad.
 


sussex_guy2k2

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2014
4,079
West Ham are a pragmatic low block team and were in a relegation battle last season with a £400m squad and double our wage bill. This season they’ve arguably had more luck than any side in the league.

Pinch yourselves because despite selling some unbelievable talent, and having our most injury hit season in the PL, we’re top half and safe. Not the goal, but not half bad.
Two or more things can occur at the same time. I can be frustrated at the things I see on the pitch, appreciate that RDZ has been dealt a poor hand and that injuries have ravaged us, and still appreciate where we’ve come from and how we’re probably overachieving given the above. I’ve said as much in other posts too.

I still stand by my point that I think RDZ needs to be able to be more pragmatic at times and that it’s the thing stopping him from taking the next step. Guardiola would never have dreamed of a defence with 4 CBs until last season… helped win him the treble didn’t it.
 


sussex_guy2k2

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2014
4,079
Having a plan b is a pretty basic fundamental of being a top level coach. RDZ has been around a while I can't see him reaching the upper echelons of management and being successful and winning stuff. Interested to see where he goes next.

Lots of people slagging him off in the stands yesterday.
I’m not slagging him off. I actually think he’s working miracles in many ways. I just think he needs to learn when to adapt tactically ie when he has too many injuries to be able to play his natural game.
 




Iggle Piggle

Well-known member
Sep 3, 2010
5,952
I'd have taken playing like West Ham yesterday in a 2 legged tie. A bit of pragmatism is no bad thing sometimes but RDZ doesn't know the meaning of the word.

We played 3 shit games in a week in exactly the same way conceded 8 and scored 0. RDZ needs to own his part in that.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,458
Hove
I’m not slagging him off. I actually think he’s working miracles in many ways. I just think he needs to learn when to adapt tactically ie when he has too many injuries to be able to play his natural game.
I think he did try to change things, but sadly the intensity of the occasion led to some individual mistakes on the night.

I think they’re going to be great players, but the teenagers wilted under the occasion, Enciso sadly led to a turnover every time he got it - I’m not for a second throwing him under the bus, but that wasn’t tactical, he just couldn’t get going.

That had the double impact of Adringa being caught up in protecting Igor. I mean loads of things went wrong, Dunk’s decision not to clear etc.

For large parts of the game we caused them problems, but our inexperience rather than tactics for me were exposed last night.
 


Mo Gosfield

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2010
6,362
West Ham are a pragmatic low block team and were in a relegation battle last season with a £400m squad and double our wage bill. This season they’ve arguably had more luck than any side in the league.

Pinch yourselves because despite selling some unbelievable talent, and having our most injury hit season in the PL, we’re top half and safe. Not the goal, but not half bad.
Not half bad ..I agree....but we have reached the stage now...in our 7th PL season...when we should be competitive in nearly every game. There will always be the occasional pounding, it happens but this season there have been too many. Teams know we are vulnerable early. We try and settle into our risky play from the word go...demanding absolute accuracy from players feeling their way into the game. Its too much pressure too early. We only have to make one mistake within 30 yards of our goal and we are in trouble. Time after time we concede early and are regularly two down at HT giving ourselves too much to do 2nd half. It feels like we are chasing games too often. Like a boxer losing the first 6-7 rounds on points and then trying to storm back, needing a knockout. I am not convinced RDZ wants to change. He shows a degree of stubbornness and arrogance in refusing to adjust during games that suggest he won't. It doesn't have to be major surgery. It's just giving the players a bit of early breathing space. Don't commit everybody up in the early minutes. Try and take the sting out of the game, at least in the first 20- 30 mins. Once settled and more importantly, still in the game, we can start passing the opposition to death. I believe he is demanding a bit too much at the moment. Our play needs to be slightly simplified. Too much overplaying. Trying to do too much on the ball and losing it..e.g Enciso and Buananotte last night and Dunk trying to be too clever rather than doing the simple thing and averting danger.
With a few less injuries I believe we would have been achieving more and now, we can only wait until next season to see if no European involvement can kick-start us again.
 




Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,458
Hove
I'd have taken playing like West Ham yesterday in a 2 legged tie. A bit of pragmatism is no bad thing sometimes but RDZ doesn't know the meaning of the word.

We played 3 shit games in a week in exactly the same way conceded 8 and scored 0. RDZ needs to own his part in that.
The same West Ham that were 0-6 home to Arsenal with 1 shot in answer? No guarantee you can just play a low defensive block and not conced. Frieburg a very different beast to Roma.
Not half bad ..I agree....but we have reached the stage now...in our 7th PL season...when we should be competitive in nearly every game. There will always be the occasional pounding, it happens but this season there have been too many. Teams know we are vulnerable early. We try and settle into our risky play from the word go...demanding absolute accuracy from players feeling their way into the game. Its too much pressure too early. We only have to make one mistake within 30 yards of our goal and we are in trouble. Time after time we concede early and are regularly two down at HT giving ourselves too much to do 2nd half. It feels like we are chasing games too often. Like a boxer losing the first 6-7 rounds on points and then trying to storm back, needing a knockout. I am not convinced RDZ wants to change. He shows a degree of stubbornness and arrogance in refusing to adjust during games that suggest he won't. It doesn't have to be major surgery. It's just giving the players a bit of early breathing space. Don't commit everybody up in the early minutes. Try and take the sting out of the game, at least in the first 20- 30 mins. Once settled and more importantly, still in the game, we can start passing the opposition to death. I believe he is demanding a bit too much at the moment. Our play needs to be slightly simplified. Too much overplaying. Trying to do too much on the ball and losing it..e.g Enciso and Buananotte last night and Dunk trying to be too clever rather than doing the simple thing and averting danger.
With a few less injuries I believe we would have been achieving more and now, we can only wait until next season to see if no European involvement can kick-start us again.
Dunk’s mistake and Enciso’s performance weren’t tactical unfortunately - Enciso he’s young, just back from injury, but his touch deserted him. There were mistakes that got punished severely.
 


Iggle Piggle

Well-known member
Sep 3, 2010
5,952
The same West Ham that were 0-6 home to Arsenal with 1 shot in answer? No guarantee you can just play a low defensive block and not conced. Frieburg a very different beast to Roma.

Dunk’s mistake and Enciso’s performance weren’t tactical unfortunately - Enciso he’s young, just back from injury, but his touch deserted him. There were mistakes that got punished severely.

All of the Roma goals were too easy. The first is straight down the middle, the third we've got 1 man marking 3 and a player ambling out to close it down. The basic tactics were non existent last night.
 


Mo Gosfield

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2010
6,362
Having a plan b is a pretty basic fundamental of being a top level coach. RDZ has been around a while I can't see him reaching the upper echelons of management and being successful and winning stuff. Interested to see where he goes next.

Lots of people slagging him off in the stands yesterday.
I think there is a level of frustration building up. All we hear in the media is that we have a brilliant manager destined for the very top who is ripping up trees at our club and its only a matter of time before he moves on.
I don't know about the rest of you but I'm bored with this speculation now, day after day. It was similar with Potter. These two haven't earned their stripes yet but are being lauded to the heavens, darlings of the media.
Potter was overrated by the media and at the moment, so is RDZ. When he has proved he is adaptable and can readjust and manage and rescue games, then so be it. At the moment, the players are being thrown to the lions because of a level of intractability.
 




nwgull

Well-known member
Jul 25, 2003
14,533
Manchester
Not half bad ..I agree....but we have reached the stage now...in our 7th PL season...when we should be competitive in nearly every game. There will always be the occasional pounding, it happens but this season there have been too many. Teams know we are vulnerable early. We try and settle into our risky play from the word go...demanding absolute accuracy from players feeling their way into the game. Its too much pressure too early. We only have to make one mistake within 30 yards of our goal and we are in trouble. Time after time we concede early and are regularly two down at HT giving ourselves too much to do 2nd half. It feels like we are chasing games too often. Like a boxer losing the first 6-7 rounds on points and then trying to storm back, needing a knockout. I am not convinced RDZ wants to change. He shows a degree of stubbornness and arrogance in refusing to adjust during games that suggest he won't. It doesn't have to be major surgery. It's just giving the players a bit of early breathing space. Don't commit everybody up in the early minutes. Try and take the sting out of the game, at least in the first 20- 30 mins. Once settled and more importantly, still in the game, we can start passing the opposition to death. I believe he is demanding a bit too much at the moment. Our play needs to be slightly simplified. Too much overplaying. Trying to do too much on the ball and losing it..e.g Enciso and Buananotte last night and Dunk trying to be too clever rather than doing the simple thing and averting danger.
With a few less injuries I believe we would have been achieving more and now, we can only wait until next season to see if no European involvement can kick-start us again.
I think the stubbornness is a real issue. We’ll probably go into Sunday playing the same way as well. Forest are undoubtedly the weakest team we’ll have played in this current run, but I can see us being beaten again without a more pragmatic approach and recognition that we’re not firing on all cylinders right now.
 


Mo Gosfield

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2010
6,362
The same West Ham that were 0-6 home to Arsenal with 1 shot in answer? No guarantee you can just play a low defensive block and not conced. Frieburg a very different beast to Roma.

Dunk’s mistake and Enciso’s performance weren’t tactical unfortunately - Enciso he’s young, just back from injury, but his touch deserted him. There were mistakes that got punished severely.
But we are seeing these type of mistakes every game. It's overplaying when simplicity is called for.
 


Mo Gosfield

Well-known member
Aug 11, 2010
6,362
All of the Roma goals were too easy. The first is straight down the middle, the third we've got 1 man marking 3 and a player ambling out to close it down. The basic tactics were non existent last night.
It's been the same for some time. No real defensive structure. Doesn't feel like there is a desire to change it.
 




beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,014
does it have to be all or nothing? we dont have to switch to super defensive. shore up, slow down a little, keep the ball, cover each other and make a pass available. dare i say go a little Potter, doesn't mean becoming a Moyes or Dyche team. build up some confidence and get into a game.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,458
Hove
I think there is a level of frustration building up. All we hear in the media is that we have a brilliant manager destined for the very top who is ripping up trees at our club and its only a matter of time before he moves on.
I don't know about the rest of you but I'm bored with this speculation now, day after day. It was similar with Potter. These two haven't earned their stripes yet but are being lauded to the heavens, darlings of the media.
Potter was overrated by the media and at the moment, so is RDZ. When he has proved he is adaptable and can readjust and manage and rescue games, then so be it. At the moment, the players are being thrown to the lions because of a level of intractability.
There is absolutely nothing the club, RDZ can do about the speculation or lauding by the media.

I dare say many fans are taken in by it and hence we have this rising frustration of 39 points after 27 games, 49 goals scored, a +5 GD and sitting 9th in the PL.

If you had said to someone at this stage in 2022, we'd be going out of the Europa League knockouts and scoring 50 league goals before the 30 game mark within 2 years, I dare say you'd have been carted off in a straight jacket!
 




southstandandy

WEST STAND ANDY
Jul 9, 2003
6,047
It's being like that that has got us where we are. Look at the amount of goals we score compared to other seasons. Under this system it's impossible to have both.

I don't expect the world from a team which I've watched from the bottom of the league to the tops. This is just the way we play, I don't think any other system would be better.
Not sure I quite agree with that. Yes going forward we do score a fair few but no more than last season. It's the drop off on goals conceded that is the worry to me.

Stats are for the Prem to date (not Europe or the cups) but a pattern is emerging :
ForGoals per gameAgainst
1.81This season1.63
1.89Last Season1.39
 






Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,458
Hove
Not sure I quite agree with that. Yes going forward we do score a fair few but no more than last season. It's the drop off on goals conceded that is the worry to me.

Stats are for the Prem to date (not Europe or the cups) but a pattern is emerging :
ForGoals per gameAgainst
1.81This season1.63
1.89Last Season1.39
We’ve basically taken MacAllister, Caicedo, March and Mitoma out for all or most of this season. On top of that, Colwill went back, and we’ve had injuries to Pervis, Veltman, Milner, Lamptey, Webster. The stats actually hold up pretty well all things considered.
 


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