[TV] Till Death Us Do Part.

[Robinjakarta]

Agree - and Warren Mitchell himself was himself a genuine left wing socialist and anti-racist.

And a very fine actor. I saw him play Willy Loman in Arthur Miller's 'Death of a Salesman' on the London stage. Fantastic performance.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

This country does satire well. A lot of people don’t get it. Sometimes it is difficult to identify. If you put your head above the parapet be prepared to have it knocked off.

 

[Cowfold Seagull]

This country does satire well. A lot of people don’t get it. Sometimes it is difficult to identify. If you put your head above the parapet be prepared to have it knocked off.

Americans don't know the meaning of the word.

 

[WATFORD zero]

This country does satire well. A lot of people don’t get it. Sometimes it is difficult to identify. If you put your head above the parapet be prepared to have it knocked off.

50 years ago, it was a brilliant satirical caricature. Now, unfortunately it's the Home Secretary, 3rd most senior post in the country. How we've moved on in 50 years

 

[worthingseagull123]

I'm going out on a limb here . . .

Over the last few weeks l've caught a few episodes of the infamous Alf Garnett saga from the 1960's and 70's. Admittedly riddled with all kinds of racist and sexist jokes, and very much of it's time, l do have to admit to finding some scenes from the sitcom very funny indeed.

The actors were perfectly cast in their roles, Warren Mitchell was superb as Alf, and the almost forgotten Dandy Nichols a great foil as the much maligned silly moo, Else. Una Stubbs playing their daughter Rita, and Anthony Booth, the scouse git, making up the regular cast.

Much derided now for obvious reasons, but l think the show still had a lot of merit, what do you lot think?

Hilarious series.

Got them all on DVD.

 

[Tony Towner's Fridge]

It was a parody series and Waren Mitchell only did it because he wanted to show and amplify the bigoted and racist attitudes of the time. Don’t knock it! It helped dispel attitudes.

TNBA

TTF

 

[Stato]

Americans don't know the meaning of the word.

None of them? Not Dick Gregory? George Carlin? Lenny Bruce? Mort Sahl? Joan Rivers? Mike Nichols & Elaine May? Richard Pryor? Lewis Black? Chris Rock? Bill Hicks? Dave Chappelle? Bill Maher? Doug Stanhope? Sarah Silverman? David Cross? Janeane Garofalo? Garry Shandling? The Daily Show? South Park? The Simpsons? The Colbert Report? Its Always Sunny? SNL? Last Week Tonight? Veep? The Onion? National Lampoon? Mad Magazine? Joseph Heller? Phillip Roth? Tom Wolfe? Kurt Vonnegut? John Kennedy Toole? Sinclair Lewis? Gore Vidal? Brett Easton Ellis? Chuck Palahniuk? P.J. O'Rourke? Hunter S Thompson? Randy Newman? Tom Lehrer? Frank Zappa? Harry Shearer? Christopher Guest? Michael McKean? Robert Altman? The Coen Brothers? Cheech & Chong? The Smothers Brothers? Mel Brooks? Paul nor Neil Simon? Bob Dylan? Dorothy Parker? Mark Twain?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I remember watching an interview with Warren Mitchell in which he talked about people in the street congratulating him "for having a go at the [expletive deleted]s last night".

He said his response to such people was that the show wasn't actually having a go at ethnic minorities. It was having a go at idiots like them, who shared Alf's racism.

No doubt it was cleverly written and quite funny at time, but I think the subtlety of the humour was lost or wasted on quite a lot of people.

It always seemed to me that however stupid and unreasonable Alf was, you couldn't help liking him.

So the satire failed. I am inclined to agree.

None of them? Not Dick Gregory? George Carlin? Lenny Bruce? Mort Sahl? Joan Rivers? Mike Nichols & Elaine May? Richard Pryor? Lewis Black? Chris Rock? Bill Hicks? Dave Chappelle? Bill Maher? Doug Stanhope? Sarah Silverman? David Cross? Janeane Garofalo? Garry Shandling? The Daily Show? South Park? The Simpsons? The Colbert Report? Its Always Sunny? SNL? Last Week Tonight? Veep? The Onion? National Lampoon? Mad Magazine? Joseph Heller? Phillip Roth? Tom Wolfe? Kurt Vonnegut? John Kennedy Toole? Sinclair Lewis? Gore Vidal? Brett Easton Ellis? Chuck Palahniuk? P.J. O'Rourke? Hunter S Thompson? Randy Newman? Tom Lehrer? Frank Zappa? Harry Shearer? Christopher Guest? Michael McKean? Robert Altman? The Coen Brothers? Cheech & Chong? The Smothers Brothers? Mel Brooks? Paul nor Neil Simon? Bob Dylan? Dorothy Parker? Mark Twain?

You may say that. Some of your list may have occasionally stooped to satire and brushed up against irony, but it wasn't the main* schtick.

But what about the American viewers?

I love satire and irony but its main imperative, it has often seemed to me, is to present mockery of the worst hypocrites and fools in society for the rather partial amusement of a tiny and self-regarding elite, whose membership includes my dearly beloved self.

I'm not sure there is anything of special value about that in the here an now, regardless of whether future scholars may look back and marvel at how clever it all was.

A bit like how some now marvel at Garnett as a paradigm of satirical wit, whereas at the time most people considered him a rather vulgar spokesman for truth about many things.

*Southpark. I'll give you Southpark.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

So the satire failed. I am inclined to agree.

You may say that. Some of your list may have occasionally stooped to satire and brushed up against irony, but it wasn't the main* schtick.

But what about the American viewers?

I love satire and irony but its main imperative, it has often seemed to me, is to present mockery of the worst hypocrites and fools in society for the rather partial amusement of a tiny and self-regarding elite, whose membership includes my dearly beloved self.

I'm not sure there is anything of special value about that in the here an now, regardless of whether future scholars may look back and marvel at how clever it all was.

A bit like how some now marvel at Garnett as a paradigm of satirical wit, whereas at the time most people considered him a rather vulgar spokesman for truth about many things.

*Southpark. I'll give you Southpark.

I strongly suspect that the sections of society in America who understand satire align perfectly with the equivalent sections in the UK. It's just there are a lot more Americans. And they're a lot louder.
The Simpsons, at it's peak over 20 years ago, definitely had a strong satirical streak.

 

[zefarelly]

But isn't it a bit like Blazing Saddles, a deliberate parody of racism where the most racist character is exposed, held up to ridicule and finally demolished. Alf Garnett always got his comeuppance and ended up as the frustrated and sad loser. And it was very funny

That's the way I saw it.

I was an impressionable lad and COmrade Sam made me watch all sorts of propaganda, like Ready steady go with Otis Redding

It's very easy to rip the shit out of anything at the moment and think you've done something good. The reality is far different.

The country is way off balance at the moment, probably more so than in the 1970's

 

[clapham_gull]

Very cleverly written and Garnett is clearly the figure of fun.

However (and this often gets forgotten by defenders of "of their time" comedies) , they were filmed in front of live studio audiences and the audiences were laughing at the racism rather than the racist character. You can't separate the live audience response from the writing because it's part of the programme as broadcast.

With the laughter track they are completely unrepeatable.

I'd defend the broadcast of the Fawlty Towers episode, but with the live audience I still find it deeply problematic.

As for the writer (as clever as he was with this series) he made others that were deemed even unacceptable at the time that were binned after a few episodes.

In my mind the jury is completely out on him.

Was this series racist ? Not on paper, but if you were racist you'd have loved it and laughed along aloud.

That's the problem.

The same goes for Little Britain and Ricky Gervais. You can't hide behind the excuse that some of your audience isn't clever enough, that's just lazy.

 

[zefarelly]

Is it lazy? You can't dumb down for idiots, thats making it worse, A la Mrs Brown. which is why we're in the shit so deep right now. A nation of idiotic sheep.

educate and question. challenge and reason.

 

[Swimboy64]

I felt for Warren Mitchell he was a good actor but as he played the the racist part so well he was often abused in the street. The dynamic between Alf the national front bigot and Mike the left wing socialist was brilliant. I think some of their political discussions was amusing to

 

[Stato]

He paid for it in “It ain’t arf hot mum” when he was the target of the racism in another now unwatchable now show that was amusing to me growing lofty

Warren Mitchell wasn't in 'IAAHM'. Are you confusing him with Michael Bates?

 

[Swimboy64]

Warren Mitchell wasn't in 'IAAHM'. Are you confusing him with Michael Bates?

Yes I was on the wrong track completely and I thought I had edited the post

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I strongly suspect that the sections of society in America who understand satire align perfectly with the equivalent sections in the UK. It's just there are a lot more Americans. And they're a lot louder.
The Simpsons, at it's peak over 20 years ago, definitely had a strong satirical streak.

Maybe I don't know the difference between satire and gentle mockery. Swift's 'modest proposal' is to me satire. As is Ingrams' and Wells' 'Dear Bill' and 'Mrs Wilson's diary'. The adventures of Bart and his relationionship with Homer seemed more like gentle mockery to me. But what do I know?

I became scientist, but in my formative years I was cruelly mocked at school by my 5th form English Teacher, Bill Lawrence, for my carless spelling. He would write out all the words I'd mangled, followed by 'litmus paper', 'Bunsen burner', 'sodium chloride' etc. And he addressed me by an anagram of my surname. Naturally I played up to it, and I'm not sure* who had the last laugh.

*I suspect it was me.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Maybe I don't know the difference between satire and gentle mockery. Swift's 'modest proposal' is to me satire. As is Ingrams' and Wells' 'Dear Bill' and 'Mrs Wilson's diary'. The adventures of Bart and his relationionship with Homer seemed more like gentle mockery to me. But what do I know?

Off the top of my head I think most of the overtly "satirical" episosdes focus more on Lisa than Bart, since it makes more sense for her to be interested in politics (like the one where she goes to Washington and sees her congressman take a bribe from a logging firm).
Lionel Hutz was originally portrayed as an ambulance chasing lawyer, which went well beyond gentle mockery.