Thousands of Romanians and Bulgarians spotted at the borders

[Herr Tubthumper]

Mustafa's point is that if you want a capitalist society then the freedom to trade and to work is essential. It's not about whether the UK is full, it's about how the UK's economy is built and what it requires.

Agree.

 

[The Spanish]

Isn't there a certain irony in the tension here. The very empire that DIP served was built on the back of Brits that were prepared to leave these shores, explore and conquer, and yet everyone is telling DIP he needs to come back here to have a point of view.

Sorry Sir Walter Raleigh, Captain Cook, Nelson etc. you've been away far too long and you're clearly not Brits anymore, but thanks for all the fish. Sir Jonathan Ive? Nope, we'll claim you as our own when we want to, but actually we know you're a silicon valley YANK! Get outta here!

At the same time, we're not prepared to allow others into the country because we fear they'll explore and conquer. That's what this is about - fear.

We need to train and encourage our young people to be the best and to get out into the world and explore. Not sit behind our garden fences complaining that the country is full when it's not - we're just frightened.

I spent 181 days out of the UK in 2013. I agree totally we have to compete in a global market place. This is not about fear in my case. Its concern about very poorly planned immigration and the fact any sensible debate is stamped on by various vested interests at home, the worst being snobs who would have their sport of sneering at those that have reasonable concerns that this has not been managed sensibly at all, taken away from them if the country actually grew up.

The hysteria is on both sides, for every rabid xenophobe there is a stuck up snob who couldnt care less if certain communities bear a brunt as long as they can be seen to be saying and thinking the Right Thing, and is paranoid about not doing so.

 

[Hamilton]

I spent 181 days out of the UK in 2013. I agree totally we have to compete in a global market place. This is not about fear in my case. Its concern about very poorly planned immigration and the fact any sensible debate is stamped on by various vested interests at home, the worst being snobs who would have their sport of sneering at those that have reasonable concerns that this has not been managed sensibly at all, taken away from them if the country actually grew up.

The hysteria is on both sides, for every rabid xenophobe there is a stuck up snob who couldnt care less if certain communities bear a brunt as long as they can be seen to be saying and thinking the Right Thing, and is paranoid about not doing so.

I understand the point you make here about communities affected by immigration, but I think the error is in seeing unnecessary restrictions immigration as the answer to the problem. I think the debate shifts to how we can ensure that communities can integrate more effectively. That's different to a 'shut the borders' shout. I think the country can only benefit from attracting people that want to work here; start businesses; export and import goods and services; employ people; pay taxes etc.

 

[Lethargic]

On the train through Gatwick airport this morning and there were a lot of foreigners with suitcases on the platform, just saying!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I spent 181 days out of the UK in 2013. I agree totally we have to compete in a global market place. This is not about fear in my case. Its concern about very poorly planned immigration and the fact any sensible debate is stamped on by various vested interests at home, the worst being snobs who would have their sport of sneering at those that have reasonable concerns that this has not been managed sensibly at all, taken away from them if the country actually grew up.

The hysteria is on both sides, for every rabid xenophobe there is a stuck up snob who couldnt care less if certain communities bear a brunt as long as they can be seen to be saying and thinking the Right Thing, and is paranoid about not doing so.

As I have alluded to. In my mind the greater threat to communities and general cohesion is not from immigrants. The thread about the floods was very enlightening and displayed a disturbing lack of support and empathy towards our fellow citizens. I guess UK citizens turning on flood victims is a welcome break for the public sector workers, and the poor, though. The country really needs to sort it's own citizens out first if it wants community restored. Immigration is a red herring.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I understand the point you make here about communities affected by immigration, but I think the error is in seeing unnecessary restrictions immigration as the answer to the problem. I think the debate shifts to how we can ensure that communities can integrate more effectively. That's different to a 'shut the borders' shout. I think the country can only benefit from attracting people that want to work here; start businesses; export and import goods and services; employ people; pay taxes etc.

Yes I agree with that but there comes up a point where demand outstrips supply for everything. God knows what would happen if we headed for another financial meltdown, instead of 3 million employed it would end up being more like 10 million and that is the problem. Nobody in government is looking towards the future because they are financially secure. People who enjoyed a reasonable standard of living in this country for years and could plan for the future can no longer do that and more people just makes it harder for everyone else because it creates extra competition and extra burdens on our services.

 

[The Spanish]

I understand the point you make here about communities affected by immigration, but I think the error is in seeing unnecessary restrictions immigration as the answer to the problem. I think the debate shifts to how we can ensure that communities can integrate more effectively. That's different to a 'shut the borders' shout. I think the country can only benefit from attracting people that want to work here; start businesses; export and import goods and services; employ people; pay taxes etc.

nowhere have i said the borders should be shut. i am not an idiot. i understand the economic benefits and to a certain extent, (though massively overstated in the prevailing climate) cultural advantages. i just find the giggly smug jocular jibes at 'little englanders' from one of the least affected large towns in England to be offensive, and completely lacking in any compassion or empathy with british people who WILL struggle with yet more competition for resources.

for the record i have seen stacks of bulgarians and romanians over the last few weeks, lost count of the amount of reg plates on the road today. but i havent been to woodingdean or portslade yet so perhaps my experience is unrepresentative.

 

[Hamilton]

Yes I agree with that but there comes up a point where demand outstrips supply for everything. God knows what would happen if we headed for another financial meltdown, instead of 3 million employed it would end up being more like 10 million and that is the problem. Nobody in government is looking towards the future because they are financially secure. People who enjoyed a reasonable standard of living in this country for years and could plan for the future can no longer do that and more people just makes it harder for everyone else because it creates extra competition and extra burdens on our services.

Justifiable concerns, and much more like the debate we should be having. Again, I don't see the answer to this having anything to do with immigration or emigration.

 

[The Spanish]

Justifiable concerns, and much more like the debate we should be having. Again, I don't see the answer to this having anything to do with immigration or emigration.

what? come off it. sorry if you genuinely believe that thats dangerous. but i guess you dont really. you are allowed to say it you know.

 

[Meade's Ball]

While he's doing that, here's some reputable recent evidence from economists at UCL backing up the opposite point.
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1113/051113-migration-report

I understand also that the Home Office commissioned some similar work from their own internal economists on the wider impacts of EU migration on public services etc, but Theresa May vetoed its publication because the findings were "too positive"...

Hmmmmm i feel neither sickened nor terrified by those statistics, so i simply can not accept them. I need the government, and even the BBC, to inform of an approaching affliction of an unmanageably bulging population that will destroy all public services for true and honest Brits and have our streets awash with those foul child-thieving gypsies i've read of in fairytales, or i won't be able to not sleep at night. My hate glands insist on being aroused with a finger-pointing and vengeful series of dunceworthy rumours. OUT YOU ODD-ACCENTED AT LEAST SEMI-SKILLED FELONS!!

 

[Hamilton]

nowhere have i said the borders should be shut. i am not an idiot. i understand the economic benefits and to a certain extent, (though massively overstated in the prevailing climate) cultural advantages. i just find the giggly smug jocular jibes at 'little englanders' from one of the least affected large towns in England to be offensive, and completely lacking in any compassion or empathy with british people who WILL struggle with yet more competition for resources.

for the record i have seen stacks of bulgarians and romanians over the last few weeks, lost count of the amount of reg plates on the road today. but i havent been to woodingdean or portslade yet so perhaps my experience is unrepresentative.

Apologies. I didn't mean to suggest that you were saying "shut the borders", but some on here have. That was not my intention.

I agree there are people that are concerned, and I'm sure you'll agree that the answer lies in helping to address these concerns without shying away from the fact that this is the world we all inhabit now. I'm in my 40's and in my lifetime I've seen the world become a small planet and we now have to live with those changes.

 

[Hamilton]

what? come off it. sorry if you genuinely believe that thats dangerous. but i guess you dont really. you are allowed to say it you know.

I don't believe we'd ever see 10 million unemployed, but I do know that our view of the future and how we need to prepare for it has changed. the old world view that the state would look after you has gone. So how do we create a secure future for people in our society as it ages? Through a strong, robust and attractive economy I'd argue. What does that look like in the future? It's certainly not going to be a closed border society is it?

 

[cunning fergus]

I will never understand the right wingers - ardently support capitalism, an economic system that relies on population growth in the form of immigration, yet are the first to oppose it. You can't have your cake and eat it.

That's because you have only read the Ladybird book of politics.

The US is the most capitalist country in the world, (currently governed by a more left leaning administration) but you can't just rock up in New York from any corner of the earth with a legal right to work there............you need a visa to work there legally. Mexican illegal/legal immigration is a major political issue in elections and it's a complex issue that both major parties have difficulties with.............if their economy relied on immigration this would surely not be the case?

As with any economic/political system capitalism does have a tendency, unless it's controlled/restricted to exploit the powerless and the poor, and yet that is exactly what we have with the EU's policy of freedom of movement and a fully open labour market across all member states.

Those famous "right wingers" like Michael Foot, Tony Benn, Neil Kinnock and Bob Crow (by way of example) were all opposed to the EU for exactly this reason. They understood what the impact of an open labour market would be on the British working class, namely a race to the bottom on wages. Labour have ignored this for the last 18 years, and let the British working class go hang........and now they have the neck to talk about a living wage crisis.

The only people celebrating the economic benefits of the new wave of immigrants from the very poorest parts of Europe will be open market capitalist neo Thatcherite types..........not the British working class.

 

[soistes]

The US is the most capitalist country in the world, (currently governed by a more left leaning administration) but you can't just rock up in New York from any corner of the earth with a legal right to work there............you need a visa to work there legally. Mexican illegal/legal immigration is a major political issue in elections and it's a complex issue that both major parties have difficulties with.............if their economy relied on immigration this would surely not be the case?

Neither can you in London. But you can rock up in London from Paris, in much the same way that you can rock up in New York from Little Rock, Arkansas
The US, a federal system ("United States"), has some economic and political similarities with the EU -- similar sized population, trading block with federal political structure, but with lots of laws delegated to individual states, government at federal and state level, free movement of both capital and labour within the area, but not across its external borders.
Of course there are lots of differences too, but the general point that it's possible to have an economic trading area of developed economies, with some central political co-ordination (i.e. a federal structure), and a combined population of 200m-plus, and free movement within it, still stands.

 

[cunning fergus]

Neither can you in London. But you can rock up in London from Paris, in much the same way that you can rock up in New York from Little Rock, Arkansas
The US, a federal system ("United States"), has some economic and political similarities with the EU -- similar sized population, trading block with federal political structure, but with lots of laws delegated to individual states, government at federal and state level, free movement of both capital and labour within the area, but not across its external borders.
Of course there are lots of differences too, but the general point that it's possible to have an economic trading area of developed economies, with some central political co-ordination (i.e. a federal structure), and a combined population o200m-plus, and free movement within it, still stands.

Sure, I see your point.

A federal United States of Europe, is exactly the same of the USA.

When did we (the electorate) get a say in this development? I have never been asked about this development, I can only recall being told by politicians the EU will not be a federal United States of Europe. Did I miss a meeting?

Until then I expect the elected Govt of the UK to look after the interests of its citizens.............not unreasonable is it?

 

[soistes]

Sure, I see your point.

A federal United States of Europe, is exactly the same of the USA.

When did we (the electorate) get a say in this development? I have never been asked about this development, I can only recall being told by politicians the EU will not be a federal United States of Europe. Did I miss a meeting?

Until then I expect the elected Govt of the UK to look after the interests of its citizens.............not unreasonable is it?

I never said it was the same; indeed I said there are "lots of differences" (one being that EU member states have much greater powers in lots of important areas than do US states). The substantive point I was making was about the feasibility of a viable economic system with free movement of capital and labour in a trading block of the size of the EU/USA, with appropriate governance arrangements in each case ( arrangements which are, importantly, different between the two cases, as you imply).

We got our say about joining Europe in the 1975 referendum (I voted against, by the way, partly because of the concerns you mentioned in your previous post). Maybe you were too young, but all the developments since then, have been through democratic and constitutional changes (according to European treaties which UK citizens and parliament voluntarily signed up to), so I find your concerns slightly disingenuous.

 

[The Spanish]

Being a viewer of this website I agree.

viewer of, meaning one of the largest contributors to.

 

[User removed 4]

You LIVE THERE...tell me how its affecting you.

and dont forget to explain the relevance of you putting a link concerning a terrorist attack in Russia, on a fecking M&S staff policy thread.

you know precisely why soul man posted that link, several people went off on tangents on that thread, yourself included, in fact you're demonstrating your propensity for this sort of thing right here on this thread with these questions , soul man posted the link because it was a thread about MUSLIMS and how a MUSLIM individual couldn't satisfactorily do her job, due to her religious beliefs, NO amount of deflection by you , will convince people it was a thread about M&S staff policy.

 

[User removed 4]

I was born there...lived most of my life there...paid plenty of taxes there...and SERVED the country...

Served the country , you couldn't hack it and bought yourself out ,Walter Mitty.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Blimey I have spawned a monster