The Ward-Ritchie-Birtles transfer triangle

[kevo]

What are people's memories of this saga? It didn't really work out that well for any of the parties did it?

(For younger viewers, Ward was transferred to Forest in October 1980 with their young striker Gary Birtles moving to Man Utd and Man Utd transferring Andy Ritchie to us at the same time - all for similar fees, I think).

Birtles was almost as much of a legend at Forest as Ward was for us - helping them to win the league, European Cup etc. Can't really remember him at Man Utd at all - did he get injured or just flop? Ritchie was an exciting young prospect at United - he didn't do too badly for us either, but wasn't really in Ward's class - and certainly didn't get the Goldstone crowds so excited. Ward's move to Forest was a disaster - Clough didn't really want him (it was Peter Taylor who was behind the transfer) and it was obvious he was never go to be in favour. In and out of the first team, according to Wikipedia he played just 28 games, scoring seven goals.

Anyone remember what inspired the transfers in the first place? I'm sure Ward didn't want to leave - and probably neither did Birtles or Ritchie. All three were highly regarded at the clubs they were at and, in the case of Ward and Birtles, pretty much worshipped by the fans. Bad bit of business all round.

 

[Ernest]

Maybe the odd brown bag of cash was involved ?

 

[amexer]

What are people's memories of this saga? It didn't really work out that well for any of the parties did it?

(For younger viewers, Ward was transferred to Forest in October 1980 with their young striker Gary Birtles moving to Man Utd and Man Utd transferring Andy Ritchie to us at the same time - all for similar fees, I think).

Birtles was almost as much of a legend at Forest as Ward was for us - helping them to win the league, European Cup etc. Can't really remember him at Man Utd at all - did he get injured or just flop? Ritchie was an exciting young prospect at United - he didn't do too badly for us either, but wasn't really in Ward's class - and certainly didn't get the Goldstone crowds so excited. Ward's move to Forest was a disaster - Clough didn't really want him (it was Peter Taylor who was behind the transfer) and it was obvious he was never go to be in favour. In and out of the first team, according to Wikipedia he played just 28 games, scoring seven goals.

Anyone remember what inspired the transfers in the first place? I'm sure Ward didn't want to leave - and probably neither did Birtles or Ritchie. All three were highly regarded at the clubs they were at and, in the case of Ward and Birtles, pretty much worshipped by the fans. Bad bit of business all round


Straight forward Ward would have been outstanding if he had played with Birtles. Instead he was played up front with Wallace who who was small.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Maybe the odd brown bag of cash was involved ?

Mr Clough wasn't adverse to a motorway service station meeting back in the day.

 

[Spanish Seagulls]

Ward came back to us on loan but Clough still messed him around & wouldn't let him play for us in our FA cup run if I remember correctly, robbing him & us of a possible winners medal.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Ward came back to us on loan but Clough still messed him around & wouldn't let him play for us in our FA cup run if I remember correctly, robbing him & us of a possible winners medal.

Ward played in the Fa cup for us that season, he scored the winner at Newcastle. It was the cup Final that Clough refused to let him play.

 

[BensGrandad]

Wasnt Clough famously quoted as saying to Wardy " I never played in a cup final and neither are you going to"

 

[kevo]

Ward played in the Fa cup for us that season, he scored the winner at Newcastle. It was the cup Final that Clough refused to let him play.

That's correct. Didn't Clough say something like "I've never played in an FA Cup final so why should he?"

 

[BangaloreGull]

My memory was that Birtles was valued at about £1.5m, Ward and Ritchie under £500k, so I think Utd stumped up a load of cash as well. Birtles as you say was a disaster, as was Ward. Ritchie was both very good for us, and later was swapped 1 for 1 for Terry Conner from Leeds who was also very good, so we without a doubt got the best of the deal.

Whilst I agree Ritchie was never as good as Ward I am going to be controversial - we cashed in on Ward because he was past his best and Forest offered us a lot of cash for him - I honestly think by the time we did the deal Ritchie was a better player. The even more controversial thought I sometimes let surface is that Ward was never good enough for the top division. . . I hasten to add that I don't really believe that, but I cant completely dispel the suspicion. Unlike Zamora who went on to have a long term career at the top, Ward scored a bucket load of goals in the lower divisions, but never did it at the top - my memory of him in division 1 is that he was frustrating.

 

[kevo]

My memory was that Birtles was valued at about £1.5m, Ward and Ritchie under £500k, so I think Utd stumped up a load of cash as well. Birtles as you say was a disaster, as was Ward. Ritchie was both very good for us, and later was swapped 1 for 1 for Terry Conner from Leeds who was also very good, so we without a doubt got the best of the deal.

Whilst I agree Ritchie was never as good as Ward I am going to be controversial - we cashed in on Ward because he was past his best and Forest offered us a lot of cash for him - I honestly think by the time we did the deal Ritchie was a better player. The even more controversial thought I sometimes let surface is that Ward was never good enough for the top division. . . I hasten to add that I don't really believe that, but I cant completely dispel the suspicion. Unlike Zamora who went on to have a long term career at the top, Ward scored a bucket load of goals in the lower divisions, but never did it at the top - my memory of him in division 1 is that he was frustrating.

That is controversial! I think,as you say, we did possibly get the best of the deal as Ritchie did quite well - although, like Connor, he never even approached Ward's status with the fans (actually I remember Connor being reviled for a lot of his time with us, in fact at one time he was the target of almost constant abuse). I disagree that Ward was past his best - he was only 25! He didn't fit in at Forest at all - but went on to become one of the greatest soccer stars in the US when a lot of very good players were over there, winning the MVP award - an accolade he shares with Pele, Franz Beckenbauer and Johan Cruyff. I think the real problem was that he fell out with Mullery.

 

[El Presidente]

My memory was that Birtles was valued at about £1.5m, Ward and Ritchie under £500k, so I think Utd stumped up a load of cash as well. Birtles as you say was a disaster, as was Ward. Ritchie was both very good for us, and later was swapped 1 for 1 for Terry Conner from Leeds who was also very good, so we without a doubt got the best of the deal.

Whilst I agree Ritchie was never as good as Ward I am going to be controversial - we cashed in on Ward because he was past his best and Forest offered us a lot of cash for him - I honestly think by the time we did the deal Ritchie was a better player. The even more controversial thought I sometimes let surface is that Ward was never good enough for the top division. . . I hasten to add that I don't really believe that, but I cant completely dispel the suspicion. Unlike Zamora who went on to have a long term career at the top, Ward scored a bucket load of goals in the lower divisions, but never did it at the top - my memory of him in division 1 is that he was frustrating.

Ward scored 18 goals in our first season in division 1, I think 14 were in the league, so to say he never did it at the top is very harsh.

 

[amexer]

Wards was good playing with tall striker. However at Forest he was paired with Wallace who may well have been smaller.

 

[Seagull58]

Birtles scored only a handful of goals in 18 months at Man U. I think it was several weeks if not months before he scored his first goal for them.

 

[Ernest]

That is controversial! I think,as you say, we did possibly get the best of the deal as Ritchie did quite well - although, like Connor, he never even approached Ward's status with the fans (actually I remember Connor being reviled for a lot of his time with us, in fact at one time he was the target of almost constant abuse). I disagree that Ward was past his best - he was only 25! He didn't fit in at Forest at all - but went on to become one of the greatest soccer stars in the US when a lot of very good players were over there, winning the MVP award - an accolade he shares with Pele, Franz Beckenbauer and Johan Cruyff. I think the real problem was that he fell out with Mullery.

Connor was a HATE figure when he first came, another Ashley Barnes with the fans

 

[Spanish Seagulls]

Wasnt Clough famously quoted as saying to Wardy " I never played in a cup final and neither are you going to"

That makes it even worse, what a nasty bit of work the old soak could be.

The Peter Ward era was what a lot of late 40's supporters were weaned on. They were great times when considering the bigger picture, I thought that was our level I suppose.We climbed from the old 3rd Division to the 1st & had some memorable times. How wrong I was. I wouldn't change it for the world though. That's what being a football supporter is all about to me, the highs & the lows. Real highs & real lows, not like yer Man Utds, Chelsea, Arsenal etc etc but having said(typed) that they have had some rough times in my living memory. When you consider the top 4 or 5 teams in this country only Arsenal have really been consistantly there or there abouts.

 

[Biscuit Barrel]

Mr Clough wasn't adverse to a motorway service station meeting back in the day.

I wonder if he was ever lucky enough to find a service station in Blackburn with a watering can full of water?

 

[arfer guinness]

Ward came back to us on loan but Clough still messed him around & wouldn't let him play for us in our FA cup run if I remember correctly, robbing him & us of a possible winners medal.

Met up with the legend that is Wardy in America. The story he told me was he had played for Brighton in the cup and didn't figure in Forests plans so could he go back and maybe play in the cup final. Cloughy's reply was "son I never played in a cup final neither will you" This was the beginning of the end at Forest and he went off to America.

 

[GT49er]

We were stitched up - suspect Clough was the problem (but that's only because I didn't like him.....)

Ward and Birtles were promising young goal scorers, both on the fringes of the England team. Andy Ritchie was a promising youngster at ManU, having played only a handful of gains:
ManU paid Forest £1,250,000 for Birtles and sold Andy Ritchie to us for £500K. Thus, for £750K net they got a striker on the fringe of the England team and off-loaded a youngster:
Clough sold one promising young striker on the fringe of the England team for £1,250,000 and accquired another of roughly the same level for £400K, and made £850K profit on the deal:
We swapped a promising young striker on the fringe of the England team for a youngester with a handful of games behind him - and paid £100K for the privilege!

 

[Screaming J]

Birtles scored only a handful of goals in 18 months at Man U. I think it was several weeks if not months before he scored his first goal for them.

And when he did I have this awful feeling that it was against us!

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Clough was a complete w**ker. He single handedly attempted to destroy Ward. He never wanted him and Taylor signed him with Clough abroad waiting for a fax which Taylor deliberately delayed.

And to say we sold Ward as he was past it!!!!

Blimey I've read some crap on here but that is astounding