The Vaccine Thread

[dsr-burnley]

The comment regarding the Pfizer vaccine is extremely telling - why has that not been withdrawn too?

Because Pfizer isn't subject to a panic domino effect, and because the EU are anti-AstraZeneca for unspecified reasons not unrelated to it showing up their failure. The EU politicians really are covering themselves in shame about this. (Not helped by Italian prosecutors who are investigating a manslaughter case becuase a man died very soon after getting the jab.)

In essence, they don't want anyone pointing the finger at them to say "that man died of the virus, and it was your fault for authorising it". If they can avoid that - even if hundreds more people die as a result - they are satisfied. There is no leadership, no leader with the confidence to say "there is no evidence that this vaccine is dangerous and even if it was, vaccination with it will still save many lives".

 

[RossyG]

Yet another obstacle to continentals getting their protection.

Apparently, more people have been vaccinated in the USA in the past two days than in France since December. That’s worrying stuff for that latter.

 

[Springal]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...tent&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

Italy’s Head of medicine regulator says it is ‘political’

several European countries, including Germany and France, preferred to interrupt vaccinations... to put them on hold in order to carry out checks. The choice is a political one,” Nicola Magrini told daily la Repubblica in an interview.

Magrini said that the AstraZeneca vaccine was safe and that the benefit to risk ratio of the jab is “widely positive”. There have been eight deaths and four cases of serious side-effects following vaccinations in Italy, he added.

Aifa will take two to three days to collect all required data and once “doubts are cleared we can carry on at a faster speed than before,” Magrini said.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

fatal for who .....the fella posted a link to some medical data , i read it , the figures are there if you care to read it.....this is a football forum not a televised meeting of the global immunology and haematology society.

Fatal for some who decide not to be vaccinated because of pushed anti-vaccine misinformation.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

If only other countries had a Boris running things

I see now that Sweden also decided to pause it, like 30 minutes ago.

If only governments of the world would read NSC.

'About 17 million people in the EU and the UK have received a dose of the vaccine, with fewer than 40 cases of blood clots reported as of last week, AstraZeneca said.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56411561

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

The comment regarding the Pfizer vaccine is extremely telling - why has that not been withdrawn too?

This the issue. Why pick on AZ ?

We know why. It is an organised misinformation campaign. But where is the original source ? Where is the office where this misinformation plan was hatched ?

 

[Weststander]

The comment regarding the Pfizer vaccine is extremely telling - why has that not been withdrawn too?

Aside from anti UK conspiracy theories (I don't believe them), it would leave no one getting vax'd on the continent. That would possibly bring down some governments, the pushback would be unmanageable.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

If only other countries had a Boris running things

I see now that Sweden also decided to pause it, like 30 minutes ago.

If only governments of the world would read NSC.

And if only other countries had a state epidemiologist like Anders Tegnell

 

[highflyer]

If only other countries had a Boris running things

I see now that Sweden also decided to pause it, like 30 minutes ago.

If only governments of the world would read NSC.

The problem with your logic is that it relies on governments having meaningful medical information that is not being put into the public domain. And that would be a far bigger scandal, and reflect far worse, on those governments, than the accusation that this is just political.

From the evidence that IS available to us, the statement that the decisions are based on the 'precautionary principle' makes little sense. The known consequences of pausing vaccinations (many additional deaths) as well us the unknown consequences of perpetuating the stupidity and mythology of the anti-vaxxers massively outweighs the potential risks - even if there was indeed a link with bloodclots (putting aside the medical assessment from WHO and others that it is highly unlikely that link exists). So applying the precautionary principle would actually lead to the opposite decision.

I think the precautionary principle that is being followed is essentially a selfish one from politicians under pressure. Governments would rather follow the herd in suspending the vaccination programme, covering their own backs at the expense of the deaths of many more of their citizens, than stand alone and continue to use the vaccine.

The problem in the UK is that the view of the EU has become a binary equation. It can only be either wonderful. Or awful.

In reality, the EU as an institution has its strengths, but it is hugely subject to corporate lobbying. I retain an open mind, and tend to be more inclined to cock-up over conspiracy, but I am certainly open to the possibility that what we are seeing is politically motivated.

 

[Springal]

http://twitter.com/BBCRosAtkins/status/1371574236473561092

[tweet]1371574236473561092[/tweet]

 

[Swansman]

'About 17 million people in the EU and the UK have received a dose of the vaccine, with fewer than 40 cases of blood clots reported as of last week, AstraZeneca said.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56411561

"This time the signal is so serious that it is reasonable to take a break. The decision is a precautionary measure." and "we're chilling the feck out for a couple of days until we know more", various non-AstraZeneca people said.

This the issue. Why pick on AZ ?

We know why. It is an organised misinformation campaign. But where is the original source ? Where is the office where this misinformation plan was hatched ?

Are you saying there is a conspiracy against AstraZeneca? Interesting how quickly that changes when it fits ones own narrative...

Probably evil tyrant Vladimir "Darth Vader" Putin grinding out his world domination plans again. After all, he appointed Donald Trump and Boris Johnson and dropped your ice cream when you were four, It got to be him, trying to sell Sputnik VI. Sure, would have made more sense with Pfizer (as they are unaffected and American) - but surely Saint Joe Biden of the Good & Fair NATO Empire would stop that in it tracks?

Of course, could also be a case of governments just wanting to make a short break to have an extra look.

 

[highflyer]

And if only other countries had a state epidemiologist like Anders Tegnell

I think that's unfair.

I didn't, and still don't, have any problem with the route taken by Sweden. Although I am glad we didn't follow the same path. In retrospect it may turn out to have been very wrong (we still aren't at the end of this - so still too early for final judgement) They messed up badly in terms of protecting care homes, but that wasn't the fault of the bigger strategy. But there was a logic, based on available evidence at the time, and a plan, and they stuck to it. Which was more than we had in the early stages!

I think on the vaccinations side, we have called it mainly correct and most of the rest of Europe has got it less correct. In this case it feels like we are the ones with the plan, while others have been caught out and are playing catch up. Personally I will give a small amount of (grudging) credit to those at the top of out government for this. But the real success of our vaccine strategy has been far more to do with institutions such as the Jenner institute and the NHS, which exist in spite of, not because of, the politicians currently in charge.

 

[beorhthelm]

Are you saying there is a conspiracy against AstraZeneca? Interesting how quickly that changes when it fits ones own narrative...

near same data is seen for Pfizer, different response.
40 cases of blood clots isnt just inconsequential, its lower than you'd expect in the population, especially given the demographic. you could use the data to argue it lower blood clot incidence (it doesnt of course). the precautionary princple is being borked, as outlined above, because apparently politicans would rather let people die from covid (not their fault?) than from a blood clot (their health service administered the vaccine).

 

[LamieRobertson]

numerous countries have stalled with the AZ although most have now resumed , pfizer seems to be going to more "worthwhile" citizens in Aus anyway with the AZ vax being used on the plebs....there are obviously issues and the efficacy is purported to be 64% ...?? pass.

As regards to efficacy that 64% could be challenged and said to be higher....depends what article you fancy reading.....if we switch the clock back and refer to various EU government’s getting annoyed over supplies ..this obviously means that there’s an axe to grind? No obvious about it as there is no obvious over their being a significant issue.

 

[highflyer]

As regards to efficacy that 64% could be challenged and said to be higher....depends what article you fancy reading.....if we switch the clock back and refer to various EU government’s getting annoyed over supplies ..this obviously means that there’s an axe to grind? No obvious about it as there is no obvious over their being a significant issue.

And as an aside, 64% would still be considered a highly effective vaccine, whch you'd be an idiot not to roll your sleeve up for.

 

[dsr-burnley]

near same data is seen for Pfizer, different response.
40 cases of blood clots isnt just inconsequential, its lower than you'd expect in the population, especially given the demographic. you could use the data to argue it lower blood clot incidence (it doesnt of course). the precautionary princple is being borked, as outlined above, because apparently politicans would rather let people die from covid (not their fault?) than from a blood clot (their health service administered the vaccine).

That's exactly it. This "abundance of caution" from the politicians isn't because they have decided that injecting people with the vaccine is going to cause more deaths than relying on lockdown and suspending the vaccinations.

The caution is because politicians think that the death of one specific named person from the vaccine would be more damaging to their career than the deaths of 100 extra unidentified people from the suspension of vaccinations. Their caution is because they believe that suspension of vaccinations is better for the politician, not for the people.

A French scientist is quoted in today;s Daily Telegraph, via French radio, as saying that if 100,000 over 50's have their vaccination delayed from today to tomorrow, then 15 more people will die. The politicians are delaying more people for longer than a day, and it is because they are thinking of themselves, not of their people.

The director-general of Italy's medicines agency has said that the vaccine is safe and the decision to suspend it is a political decision.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...italys-medicines-regulator-head-idUSKBN2B80KK

 

[LamieRobertson]

Not sure how true this is but....

https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1371784606224121857?s=21

BREAKING: France is considering suing AstraZeneca over a lack of vaccine deliveries, despite the country suspending the use of the jab

 

[beorhthelm]

Not sure how true this is but....

https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1371784606224121857?s=21

BREAKING: France is considering suing AstraZeneca over a lack of vaccine deliveries, despite the country suspending the use of the jab

and despite them not using what they have, because they wont administer it to the over 55's. i reckon its the old story being dragged up. would be interesting if an agreement with EU for best endevours stands up in court for an individual country.

 

[sydney]

And as an aside, 64% would still be considered a highly effective vaccine, whch you'd be an idiot not to roll your sleeve up for.

owing to lifestyle and general better house keeping the virus is nowhere near as much of a problem here as in the UK .......we are still being told no international travel for at least another 12 months so i am in no rush personally but you guys fill your boots by all means...

 

[dsr-burnley]

owing to lifestyle and general better house keeping the virus is nowhere near as much of a problem here as in the UK .......we are still being told no international travel for at least another 12 months so i am in no rush personally but you guys fill your boots by all means...

64% was the test result, based on a single jab, and all it measured was whether or not you got the virus, based on a small sample. Real world data has a much larger sample and shows 76% efficiency in preventing the virus with a single jab, and further shows that the 24% who got it, get it much less seriously, and that transmission is much reduced as well. Tests and the results of real world data show that the second jab results in 95%+ protection from getting the disease and 100% (or as near as any test can be) protection from death.