The Ukraine/Russia Situation

[OzMike]

Fair enough, but if he is allowed to succeed then who will be next?
If the US supply weapons, then he will feel justified to do whatever he wants and it will be war anyway.
I think if anyone were to supply weapons, then it should be every single nation who is in disagreement, would he declare war on all of them?

 

[Czechmate]

Why no news on the contents of the cockpit voice recorder from MH17 which was taken by the Ukrainian security services?

I was wondering that the other day , when the box came to the UK they said the pilots voice will be available within a couple of days weird !

 

[Czechmate]

Ukrainian president says he has agreed with Russia's President Putin on "permanent ceasefire" in east of country.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29042561

Yeh I heard that , great news . it's the way to go not by war as some people wanted in this post . Both sides are as bad as each other they need to sit down and sort out the issues now .

 

[carlzeiss]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/12/nato-russian-tanks-entering-ukraine

 

[daveinprague]

A few of the people here seem keen to bomb every world problem. I'm guessing its for more exciting tv

 

[dingodan]

"When Ukrainian army officers came to the Ukrainian village of Velikaya Znamenka to tell the men to prepare to be drafted, they weren’t prepared for what happened next. As the commanding officer was speaking, a woman seized the microphone and proceeded to tell him off: “We’re sick of this war! Our husbands and sons aren’t going anywhere!” She then launched into a passionate speech, denouncing the war, and the coup leaders in Kiev, to the cheers of the crowd."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQjmwVC_Dts

Turn on Subtitles. Encouraging.

 

[sparkie]

Ukraine are not members of Nato . If they were , we would be at war with Russia now

All Putin needs to do is send his little green men across the river to Narva in Estonia, and that will be it.

 

[supaseagull]

Just in case

 

[severnside gull]

History repeating itself.
Putin emulating Hitler reclaiming past empire while once again the rest of Europe stands by and does nothing for fear that doing anything will worsen the situation (as it probably might).
Simplistic maybe but nothing new under the sun.

 

[Czechmate]

A few of the people here seem keen to bomb every world problem. I'm guessing its for more exciting tv

Quite agree , saw the pictures of Koban on the news the other day and the place was flattened , ok it may of driven the IS forces out , but what about the civilians that decided not to leave , it's fine bombing all the time but you won't hear on the news how many local civilians have been killed , but that doesn't seem to worry the US , as long as it's own ' National Security' benefits .

And the Kiev government bombing it's own people for the last 6 months or so is an utter disgrace . Glad we could see the other side of the story (at last) last night on the news where the soup kitchens were bombed again and again .

Even the Western Ukrainians are getting fed up with the Kiev government.

 

[daveinprague]

The west is scared of strong Russian leaders. A place like Russia needs a strong leader.

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

As always, Western nations, or particularly the USA, should stop trying to bully nations to do as they say, especially when they will not give in like Russia. The victims of this game is the Eastern Ukrainian people, there is a peaceful solution, but pathetic sanctions never work, they only provoke and cause greater suffering to regular people.

What would be your idea of a solution to this if not sanctions? Allowing Putin to continue to take back whatever land he feels like isn't something we should stand by and let happen with no consequences is it?

 

[daveinprague]

Not sure Putin is taking anything back. Think its more the people of the region, telling the Kiev govt to **** off, than Russian direction. This shit has been going on for years with the eastern region. We have had major fights in our club over the last few years, that were explained to me as country v city Ukrainians, turns out its been between Ukrainians, and Eastern Ukrainians.

 

[Triggaaar]

"When Ukrainian army officers came to the Ukrainian village of Velikaya Znamenka to tell the men to prepare to be drafted, they weren’t prepared for what happened next. As the commanding officer was speaking, a woman seized the microphone and proceeded to tell him off: “We’re sick of this war! Our husbands and sons aren’t going anywhere!” She then launched into a passionate speech, denouncing the war, and the coup leaders in Kiev, to the cheers of the crowd."

Turn on Subtitles. Encouraging.

How is it encouraging? The lady is a Russian descendant and identifies with Russia. That doesn't mean the Crimea should be part of Russia. The original inhabitants (the Tatars) don't want to be part of Russia.

Diplomacy, negotiation?

If you're simply saying 'please stop, or we'll do nothing other than keep asking you nicely'. how is that negotiating? Sanctions are part of diplomacy and negotiating. 'Stop killing people, or we won't trade with you' seems like a fair attitude to me.

 

[vegster]

Not sure Putin is taking anything back. Think its more the people of the region, telling the Kiev govt to **** off, than Russian direction. This shit has been going on for years with the eastern region. We have had major fights in our club over the last few years, that were explained to me as country v city Ukrainians, turns out its been between Ukrainians, and Eastern Ukrainians.

That's pretty similar to when the Crawley boys used to come down and cause trouble in Brighton, but the Ukraine version has shooters and "spontaneous " arrivals of tanks and rockets now. The big problem is Putin. He is an old school communist who will always play the West in the manner of Stalin, Khrushchev etc. He will take back as much as he wants of Ukraine while the West is divided over what to do. He is like a python, he crushes a little bit more if you relax or breathe out.

If there is a ceasefire, he will re arm and then instigate an incident to breach the ceasefire and push forward again. This will not end well until Putin has what he wants.

 

[severnside gull]

Putin might be a bit of a cock, but comparing him to Hitler, really?

Like him or not, he's an extremely competent world leader, as is evident with the way he's dealt with the Ukraine situation and Western sanctions. Despite these potentially crippling sanctions and the rouble tumbling, he's managed to strike deals to allow Russia to increase its military budget by 33% while at the same time his popularity in Russia is higher than ever, as is the "happiness" of the Russian population.

As always, Western nations, or particularly the USA, should stop trying to bully nations to do as they say, especially when they will not give in like Russia. The victims of this game is the Eastern Ukrainian people, there is a peaceful solution, but pathetic sanctions never work, they only provoke and cause greater suffering to regular people.

A great many people in the UK said very similar things about Hitler. The comparison is the use of an appeal to reforming empire as a tool to build the economy which was/is ostracised and penalised by the rest of Europe/USA.
The similarities are marked and it is hard to see how the situation can be opposed without creating a bigger issue. In the 1930's Hitler's annexation of other nations was the precursor to armed conflict when it was opposed by other European powers. Ukraine today has a similar potential.
Economic sanctions against Russia will struggle as banks and other industries continue to find ways to undermine them and in truth they are probably justified as it is the threat as much as the implementation of sanctions that continues to empower Putin at home just as it did Hitler 80 years ago. Providing economic aid to Ukraine is a black hole with little discernible benefit in relation to the immediate situation and the provision of arms or other logistical support is potentially disastrous.
Just as in the 1930's it is hard to see where the situation will go. The one lesson we have hopefully learned is that diplomacy, whilst almost certainly bound to short term failure, is the least damaging option globally.
Inevitably now Putin will annex Eastern Ukraine as he has Crimea and as Hitler did Sudetanland. The next step is Putin's. Stick or bust? And the lessons of history are clear......

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

Diplomacy, negotiation? Something that we seldom try, but would be a solution to so many world problems, from Syria to North Korea. Sanctions never work.

Russia thinks it is right in doing what it has in Ukraine, Western nations thinks it is wrong - this should be discussed around a table diplomatically, rather than sanctioning the shit out of Russia's ruling classes, which will only provoke them.

As for sending arms to Ukraine - consider the shit storm that has occurred by sending arms to the Syrian rebels. Our leaders seem to be diplomatically inept, they don't seem to know what they are doing.

You're right, they're pretty futile, but that is diplomacy is it not? Saying "pretty please stop invading another country" to Putin probably isn't going to work either.

 

[dingodan]

Anyone comparing Putin to Hitler or contemplating a third world war with Russia needs their head examined.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

IMHO Putin needs slapping down hard now before he starts in on the Baltic States with his expansionist bullshit. For example, broken down by ethnic group, Estonia consists of 70% Estonians, 25% Russians, 5% Other. Estonia is getting along just fine as it is. Wouldn't take much effort by Putin to spin up some flimsy crap about oppressed Russian minorities. Estonia is currently worried and has every right to be so.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Putin might be a bit of a cock, but comparing him to Hitler, really?

Like him or not, he's an extremely competent world leader, as is evident with the way he's dealt with the Ukraine situation and Western sanctions. Despite these potentially crippling sanctions and the rouble tumbling, he's managed to strike deals to allow Russia to increase its military budget by 33% while at the same time his popularity in Russia is higher than ever, as is the "happiness" of the Russian population.

As always, Western nations, or particularly the USA, should stop trying to bully nations to do as they say, especially when they will not give in like Russia. The victims of this game is the Eastern Ukrainian people, there is a peaceful solution, but pathetic sanctions never work, they only provoke and cause greater suffering to regular people.

Surely you can't be that naive? Ukraine has a problem and it's up to the Ukrainian people to sort it out, not for Russia to step in with arms and jackboots.
Putin had the excuse he wanted, protecting his base in the Crimea, and took it with both hands.