[Drinking] The trouble in Leeds

[Eric the meek]

It is exactly the same in parts of Canada with their aboriginals. Could the two situations be somehow related?

In Canada it is 100% the fault of the incomers. The forcible removal of native kids so they could be 'educated' into Western Ways was an absolute mess, depriving the kids of their cultural connection, and leaving them indoctrinated into a culture that rejected and discriminated against them. Result: alcoholism, hopelessness, mental illness and criminality.

But let's not smear whole peoples a human failures and wash our hands of them. In Canada at least there has been a huge amount of effort that does seems to have some traction. I have native peoples in my extended family, and have spent time on their land.

Where things are not working out, yes, you are correct. It is the incomers fault (in your example, 'Australians' - by which I presume you mean the whites).

Yes, I do mean the whites. I remember you lived in Vancouver for a while. It was a beautiful, enriching place when I was there at age 19; I hear it is less so now, with meth on every corner. On the same trip, we flew down to Seattle, and drove out to the Pacific coast to a coastal village called La Push in the rain forest in front of the Olympic mountains. Wide sandy beaches, strewn with logs, islets covered with pines before the setting sun. The most stunning place I had ever seen, it moved me. Then as we returned to the car, I noticed all these First Nation people, unconscious on their porches, with knackered cars and other rubbish dumped in their yards. It kind of took the gloss off it a bit. Such is the benefit of travel outside an organised tour. It's warts n' all.

But you have reminded me that things can work out if the commitment is there. I was beginning to be drawn into Sydney's view of the world for a minute there.

 

[cunning fergus]

So you find something that dates from 10 years ago, which is full of the word “alleged”, and is about someone who is no longer an MP and hasn’t been for a while.
there are more recent examples of MPs being convicted of child sexual abuse - Tory and Labour

Well Patricia Hewett apologised for it, she must be as thick as mince if it was over stuff she had no influence on……….

Patricia Hewitt takes responsibility for mistakes over paedophile campaign

Former cabinet minister apologises for 'getting it wrong' in 1970s as general secretary of National Council for Civil Liberties

search.app

I think a soft minded niavety is more likely, y’know the types, easily won over by a narrative of oppression and overthrowing the traditional patriarchy. These days the Hewetts of the world are demanding women have penises……..plus ca change with this lot.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Well Patricia Hewett apologised for it, she must be as thick as mince if it was over stuff she had no influence on……….

Patricia Hewitt takes responsibility for mistakes over paedophile campaign

Former cabinet minister apologises for 'getting it wrong' in 1970s as general secretary of National Council for Civil Liberties

search.app

I think a soft minded niavety is more likely, y’know the types, easily won over by a narrative of oppression and overthrowing the traditional patriarchy. These days the Hewetts of the world are demanding women have penises……..plus ca change with this lot.

I didn’t say she had no influence on it. I merely pointed out it was a long time ago and about someone who has not been an MP for a long time. I was implying “scraping the barrel” And was not trying to defend Patricia Hewitt.

 

[Wardy's twin]

This.

Police officers are just people from the community, trained and willing to deal with extraordinary situations. They have families, they go to the gym, they watch football. They are not the military and neither are they cannon fodder.

By law they are not expected to put themselves at unreasonable risk, even though the public often expects them to and some choose to. They are expected to read a situation, assess risk and take appropriate action to preserve life and prevent crime where they can. They are not expected to take reckless risks, wade in without thinking, or deal with situations they are not equipped for, all of which can actually be more dangerous to the public as well as themselves.

That's why there are specially trained public order officers with appropriate kit, officers on horseback, firearms officers, officers trained to use taser, dog handlers, etc. Most officers you see on the street, or supporting social services activity for example, are just regular response or neighborhood officers, and many of those are still pretty new in service. They don't attend expecting a riot to kick off and neither should they. They are not riot police. But they will take the action required of them if it happens.

They will all do what they can to protect life and prevent crime, it's why they joined and what they signed up to. They are absolutely not expected to give up their lives or get seriously injured in order to do so, although they and their families know that's always a risk, every day. And many sadly do end up losing their lives. But they are not expected to throw them away. And certainly not to save a ****ing bus.

Calling taking the action required of them under the law "retreating", is ridiculous rhetoric and only serves to inflame the anti-police narrative. Maybe they're not gung-ho enough for some people's liking. Good. That's exactly why they are trained and bound by a legal framework and a professional code of conduct, not loose cannons putting people's lives at risk. They are certainly not cowards, and to suggest that from behind a keyboard is pretty offensive tbh. They, and their commanding officers with years of experience of leading public order situations, will always look at the most appropriate action to take and sometimes that's to stand back. And they won't give a sh*t that someone on a forum somewhere with no idea of what policing is really like, might think it makes them look a bit soft.

Police officers are just people from the community, trained and willing to deal with extraordinary situations. They have families, they go to the gym, they watch football. - where do you think the military come from then?

There has been a move to reduce attacks on police by standing off and then arresting people with video evidence which in itself is clearly a good thing but the problem is it can give the wrong message i.e. the police scared, police don't protect people/property in real-time , the perpetrators are getting away with it etc etc. My issue isn't with that approach but generally the sentencing which follows , often far too light. I know a lot of people have a view that prison doesn't deter which might be true but they certainly aren't going to repeat the crime if they are in prison....

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I know a lot of people have a view that prison doesn't deter which might be true but they certainly aren't going to repeat the crime if they are in prison....

There would of course, need to be spaces in the prison

 

[cunning fergus]

There would of course, need to be spaces in the prison

If we could find a way to dispose of a) those never to be released, b) peados, c) rapists, d) murderers and e) terrorists (or any combination of) that would free up some spaces…….

 

[cunning fergus]

I didn’t say she had no influence on it. I merely pointed out it was a long time ago and about someone who has not been an MP for a long time. I was implying “scraping the barrel” And was not trying to defend Patricia Hewitt.

Stop singing, your inference was that it didn’t matter as it was historic and alleged.

She and her fellow political travellers were mad as March hares to counternance the involvement of PIE and all it represented.

Their sucessors are just as mad and degenerate…….

 

[Wardy's twin]

There would of course, need to be spaces in the prison

Indeed , a good building spree would help kick start the economy.

Letting going the just stop oil people would free up 5 places .....

 

[sydney]

I don't doubt all that you say. Including when you say 'you have no idea mate'. It is plain to me that I have indeed no idea how bad things are. But I didn't claim I did. How can I know how bad things are when much of it is covered up and hidden away from public scrutiny? I also didn't claim there has been no effort to reconcile. I said that whatever Australia has tried, it has failed. That comes across very strongly from your posts.

You say 'the majority are out of patience with it'. Well, yes. What is the solution offered by the majority then? Is there a different solution proposed by the (Aboriginal) minority? One that is not imposed on them by the majority? I find it difficult to imagine that there isn't.......

Perhaps whatever it is that Australia has concluded that the Aboriginals want, isn't what they really want? That whatever you provide, will get trashed precisely because it was provided by you? Perhaps the trust and goodwill are also trashed.

There is no easy way to say this. It's Australia's fault. All of it. I realise you may think this doesn't help, but it seems that many Australians still don't want to own it nor accept responsibility for it. That first step is of critical importance. Probably not a popular idea in Republican Australia, but is there a role that HM Government could play in an advisory/oversight capacity? Rebuild a few bridges etc? After all, you've had 35 years to get it right and you've failed. Spectacularly.

'You can blither away , i'm not racist but you have to admit the current situation is not working and can not work long term.' - Sydney, post #85 mob

Yes, I do mean the whites. I remember you lived in Vancouver for a while. It was a beautiful, enriching place when I was there at age 19; I hear it is less so now, with meth on every corner. On the same trip, we flew down to Seattle, and drove out to the Pacific coast to a coastal village called La Push in the rain forest in front of the Olympic mountains. Wide sandy beaches, strewn with logs, islets covered with pines before the setting sun. The most stunning place I had ever seen, it moved me. Then as we returned to the car, I noticed all these First Nation people, unconscious on their porches, with knackered cars and other rubbish dumped in their yards. It kind of took the gloss off it a bit. Such is the benefit of travel outside an organised tour. It's warts n' all.

But you have reminded me that things can work out if the commitment is there. I was beginning to be drawn into Sydney's view of the world for a minute there.

there are rose tinted glasses and then there are yours....please remember we were discussing the trouble in Leeds in Britain , not the failure of the Australian Govt. to solve the myriad problems around the Aboriginal issue in Australia Governments are failing their people all over the world and i have certainly seen enough hardcore intra family violence in the Aboriginal community to know that you are talking absolute bollocks .
I can't believe you have any first hand experience on which to base your myopic rant above , like i said there have been heartfelt and numerous attempts at reconciliation but many , many of them just aren't interested. Thats a fact.

Good luck sorting your latest rioting community out in Manchester over the coming evenings , wake up to yourself mate , you've got your own problems , don't worry about the Noongar and Koori , they don't give a shit about you , i can assure you of that.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Stop singing, your inference was that it didn’t matter as it was historic and alleged.

She and her fellow political travellers were mad as March hares to counternance the involvement of PIE and all it represented.

Their sucessors are just as mad and degenerate…….

That wasn’t my intended inference, and your interpretation of it is perverse.

I have no idea of who her fellow travellers, but as I’ve already implied, I would certainly not have supported what they were proposing.

if by “their successors“ you mean the present government, I strongly disagree. it’s the bunch of incompetents they have just ousted who are mad and degenerate

 

[Eric the meek]

there are rose tinted glasses and then there are yours....please remember we were discussing the trouble in Leeds in Britain , not the failure of the Australian Govt. to solve the myriad problems around the Aboriginal issue in Australia Governments are failing their people all over the world and i have certainly seen enough hardcore intra family violence in the Aboriginal community to know that you are talking absolute bollocks .
I can't believe you have any first hand experience on which to base your myopic rant above , like i said there have been heartfelt and numerous attempts at reconciliation but many , many of them just aren't interested. Thats a fact.

Good luck sorting your latest rioting community out in Manchester over the coming evenings , wake up to yourself mate , you've got your own problems , don't worry about the Noongar and Koori , they don't give a shit about you , i can assure you of that.

A few observations:

1. In all our discussion (which I admit has been wide-ranging), you haven't said one single good thing about the Aboriginals. Not one.
2. In every reply you make, you try to shoot the messenger, forever trying to trump my lack of local knowledge with yet another 'bad Aboriginal' story. This is characterised by insults, abuse and belittlement.
3. Inspite of appointing yourself as an expert in Aboriginal culture, you offer no answer in how to manage their presence in Australia, nor a routemap to one.
4. Your own anecdotes and statistics show that the well of goodwill and trust between the Australian government and the Aboriginal community was poisoned long ago.
5. White Australians have a long, long way to go before they take ownership and responsibility for the long term serial failure for their own Aboriginal policies. This is why the problem is likely to get progressively worse.

How can white Australia ever resolve this when they believe the problems are always the fault of the Aboriginals?

 

[sydney]

A few observations:

1. In all our discussion (which I admit has been wide-ranging), you haven't said one single good thing about the Aboriginals. Not one.
2. In every reply you make, you try to shoot the messenger, forever trying to trump my lack of local knowledge with yet another 'bad Aboriginal' story. This is characterised by insults, abuse and belittlement.
3. Inspite of appointing yourself as an expert in Aboriginal culture, you offer no answer in how to manage their presence in Australia, nor a routemap to one.
4. Your own anecdotes and statistics show that the well of goodwill and trust between the Australian government and the Aboriginal community was poisoned long ago.
5. White Australians have a long, long way to go before they take ownership and responsibility for the long term serial failure for their own Aboriginal policies. This is why the problem is likely to get progressively worse.

How can white Australia ever resolve this when they believe the problems are always the fault of the Aboriginals?

conclusion

you rapidly turned the focus of this thread from "trouble in Leeds" to what about the Aboriginals Sydney..??

the fact is that on the whole Aboriginal Australians want to be left alone , this is why communities such as Palm Island , Halls Creek , Marble Bar and numerous other smaller communities or missions exist , the ones ( youths) who venture into metropolitan areas are invariably poorly educated due to school attendance not being enforced , usually virtually malnourished due to woeful diet and usually have the attitudes associated with being bought up by one dysfunctional parent or other extended family , the overwhelming sentiment from such youngsters is that nobody wants them , their mothers were often raped and foetal alcohol syndrome is rife , also kids born with hepatitis or meth addictions ........3 of our daughters school friends families have volunteered as foster families for these young kids some as young as 3 months but ranging up to 7 or 8 kids , some with success , a few without as on a couple of occasions the grandparents have challenged the system and the kids have been awarded back to them under supervision orders , usually the kids are brought back to the foster parents once the situation at "home" is fully appraised by authorities......i have worked with a lot of Aboriginals over my years in Oz , also been in jail with them , they are mostly good people but the substance abuse issue is catastrophic and no amount of education seems to work , if they want it they want it and they are going tom get it , thats where the robbings and muggings come in and that is why the broader community have no time for them , Carnarvon and Alice Springs currently have huge problems with burglaries/robberies and street crime in general.

so that is a frank appraisal of where im at with it all , i worked on a banana farm in QLD for 2 months in 1987 i camped in Tully and got friendly with 2 aboriginal brothers from Goulburn in Sydney , we ate , drank , worked and got stoned together (only ganja) for a good month , they showed me how to find crocodile eggs , i even got into a scrap defending them one evening when we went into the "wrong" pub ......i woke up one morning and they had gone , taking my caste iron frying pan with them ....pricks ......they were decent enough guys but when they got on the turps you had to see it to believe it. Turned out they were on the run and wanted in Sydney for armed robbery.

anyway , the trouble in Leeds is an infinitely different situation altogether isn't it..?

footage on SM today of coppers arresting family at Manchester airport , doesn't look good , i'd say copper will get the sack and there will, be more unrest this weekend..?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Police officers are just people from the community, trained and willing to deal with extraordinary situations. They have families, they go to the gym, they watch football. - where do you think the military come from then?

There has been a move to reduce attacks on police by standing off and then arresting people with video evidence which in itself is clearly a good thing but the problem is it can give the wrong message i.e. the police scared, police don't protect people/property in real-time , the perpetrators are getting away with it etc etc. My issue isn't with that approach but generally the sentencing which follows , often far too light. I know a lot of people have a view that prison doesn't deter which might be true but they certainly aren't going to repeat the crime if they are in prison....

They may well do so after release, depending on how it goes, inside.

Or do you think that when released all prisoners are 'cured'?

I refer people to wider discussions on criminality. But if people think that everyone should be just like them, or face the consequences, maybe don't bother giving it a second thought. Campaign for the building of more prisons, and the tax rises needed to fund them. Of course the costs could be greatly reduced by simplifying the legal system - just arrest people, lock them up (no ifs and buts) and, er, make a nice cup of tea..

If that doesn't work, bring back hanging? For everyone?

I love a simplistic solution, me.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

conclusion

you rapidly turned the focus of this thread from "trouble in Leeds" to what about the Aboriginals Sydney..??

the fact is that on the whole Aboriginal Australians want to be left alone , this is why communities such as Palm Island , Halls Creek , Marble Bar and numerous other smaller communities or missions exist , the ones ( youths) who venture into metropolitan areas are invariably poorly educated due to school attendance not being enforced , usually virtually malnourished due to woeful diet and usually have the attitudes associated with being bought up by one dysfunctional parent or other extended family , the overwhelming sentiment from such youngsters is that nobody wants them , their mothers were often raped and foetal alcohol syndrome is rife , also kids born with hepatitis or meth addictions ........3 of our daughters school friends families have volunteered as foster families for these young kids some as young as 3 months but ranging up to 7 or 8 kids , some with success , a few without as on a couple of occasions the grandparents have challenged the system and the kids have been awarded back to them under supervision orders , usually the kids are brought back to the foster parents once the situation at "home" is fully appraised by authorities......i have worked with a lot of Aboriginals over my years in Oz , also been in jail with them , they are mostly good people but the substance abuse issue is catastrophic and no amount of education seems to work , if they want it they want it and they are going tom get it , thats where the robbings and muggings come in and that is why the broader community have no time for them , Carnarvon and Alice Springs currently have huge problems with burglaries/robberies and street crime in general.

so that is a frank appraisal of where im at with it all , i worked on a banana farm in QLD for 2 months in 1987 i camped in Tully and got friendly with 2 aboriginal brothers from Goulburn in Sydney , we ate , drank , worked and got stoned together (only ganja) for a good month , they showed me how to find crocodile eggs , i even got into a scrap defending them one evening when we went into the "wrong" pub ......i woke up one morning and they had gone , taking my caste iron frying pan with them ....pricks ......they were decent enough guys but when they got on the turps you had to see it to believe it. Turned out they were on the run and wanted in Sydney for armed robbery.

anyway , the trouble in Leeds is an infinitely different situation altogether isn't it..?

footage on SM today of coppers arresting family at Manchester airport , doesn't look good , i'd say copper will get the sack and there will, be more unrest this weekend..?

Interesting. Sadly we can't turn back the clock, so we just have to mop up the mess (that 'we' incomers created). As I noted elsewhere, there are parallels with the native and incomer populations in Canada. Throwing a lot of money at it has undoubtedly helped in Canada.

(and, yes, people are the same everywhere, capable of good and bad, all of us, depending on all of the various factors that determine our health, wealth, and cultures).

 

[Eric the meek]

conclusion

you rapidly turned the focus of this thread from "trouble in Leeds" to what about the Aboriginals Sydney..??

the fact is that on the whole Aboriginal Australians want to be left alone , this is why communities such as Palm Island , Halls Creek , Marble Bar and numerous other smaller communities or missions exist , the ones ( youths) who venture into metropolitan areas are invariably poorly educated due to school attendance not being enforced , usually virtually malnourished due to woeful diet and usually have the attitudes associated with being bought up by one dysfunctional parent or other extended family , the overwhelming sentiment from such youngsters is that nobody wants them , their mothers were often raped and foetal alcohol syndrome is rife , also kids born with hepatitis or meth addictions ........3 of our daughters school friends families have volunteered as foster families for these young kids some as young as 3 months but ranging up to 7 or 8 kids , some with success , a few without as on a couple of occasions the grandparents have challenged the system and the kids have been awarded back to them under supervision orders , usually the kids are brought back to the foster parents once the situation at "home" is fully appraised by authorities......i have worked with a lot of Aboriginals over my years in Oz , also been in jail with them , they are mostly good people but the substance abuse issue is catastrophic and no amount of education seems to work , if they want it they want it and they are going tom get it , thats where the robbings and muggings come in and that is why the broader community have no time for them , Carnarvon and Alice Springs currently have huge problems with burglaries/robberies and street crime in general.

so that is a frank appraisal of where im at with it all , i worked on a banana farm in QLD for 2 months in 1987 i camped in Tully and got friendly with 2 aboriginal brothers from Goulburn in Sydney , we ate , drank , worked and got stoned together (only ganja) for a good month , they showed me how to find crocodile eggs , i even got into a scrap defending them one evening when we went into the "wrong" pub ......i woke up one morning and they had gone , taking my caste iron frying pan with them ....pricks ......they were decent enough guys but when they got on the turps you had to see it to believe it. Turned out they were on the run and wanted in Sydney for armed robbery.

anyway , the trouble in Leeds is an infinitely different situation altogether isn't it..?

footage on SM today of coppers arresting family at Manchester airport , doesn't look good , i'd say copper will get the sack and there will, be more unrest this weekend..?

Good post.

I hear what you're saying. There can be good interactions with Aboriginals, even if they do nick your frying pan. Not sure about finding crocodile eggs though. That might lead to unexpected consequences, no?

Neither of us are going to solve the Aboriginal crisis, so let's go back to Leeds and now Manchester.

The Leeds riots and the Aboriginals are indeed infinitely different. Just one thing we do differently here in the UK, is that we video it all. So our shit is immediately broadcast to a wider audience. This leads to other problems, with untold characters getting involved, putting the boot in etc. Right now, the greatest threat to our multi-cultural peace is occupying five seats in Parliament, and is intent on fanning the flames.

For Lee Anderson to say he commends the policeman in the Manchester video, and he would give him a medal, doesn't help anyone or anything. The video clearly looks bad, but I would counsel that everyone wait until we hear what happened leading up to the incidents in the video. I understand there was a fight in which armed officers were punched to the ground.

 

[Wardy's twin]

They may well do so after release, depending on how it goes, inside.

Or do you think that when released all prisoners are 'cured'?

I refer people to wider discussions on criminality. But if people think that everyone should be just like them, or face the consequences, maybe don't bother giving it a second thought. Campaign for the building of more prisons, and the tax rises needed to fund them. Of course the costs could be greatly reduced by simplifying the legal system - just arrest people, lock them up (no ifs and buts) and, er, make a nice cup of tea..

If that doesn't work, bring back hanging? For everyone?

I love a simplistic solution, me.

There are habitual criminals who make life hell for some local communities. Usually the crimes are described as petty e.g. theft, burglary maybe some form of minor violence. I use the word petty but in reality the victim doesn't seem it as such. Few are cured by prison life but crime rate reduces when they are inside. Everyone (with some exceptions) deserves a second chance but third, fourth fifth,,, no. Lots of tax payers money wasted in dealing with low level crime.

There is no simple answer but that doesn't mean you don't take some action.


Our society needs laws to maintain it's structure if people know they won't be punished then the laws mean nothing and society will fall apart.

 

[sydney]

Good post.

I hear what you're saying. There can be good interactions with Aboriginals, even if they do nick your frying pan. Not sure about finding crocodile eggs though. That might lead to unexpected consequences, no?

Neither of us are going to solve the Aboriginal crisis, so let's go back to Leeds and now Manchester.

The Leeds riots and the Aboriginals are indeed infinitely different. Just one thing we do differently here in the UK, is that we video it all. So our shit is immediately broadcast to a wider audience. This leads to other problems, with untold characters getting involved, putting the boot in etc. Right now, the greatest threat to our multi-cultural peace is occupying five seats in Parliament, and is intent on fanning the flames.

For Lee Anderson to say he commends the policeman in the Manchester video, and he would give him a medal, doesn't help anyone or anything. The video clearly looks bad, but I would counsel that everyone wait until we hear what happened leading up to the incidents in the video. I understand there was a fight in which armed officers were punched to the ground.

the media have the idiots by the genitals ....you must know that surely , divide and conquer all the way mate , it's that obvious most people miss it .....it doesn't matter what colour you are or religion , at the end of the day if you're a fuckwitt then your a fuckwitt....there are voluminous fuckwitts of all shades and inclinations roaming the planet .
croc eg hunting done in the heat of the afternoon when all the fuckers are in the water , not on land , another obvious stratagem for those in the know ...

 

[sydney]

Interesting. Sadly we can't turn back the clock, so we just have to mop up the mess (that 'we' incomers created). As I noted elsewhere, there are parallels with the native and incomer populations in Canada. Throwing a lot of money at it has undoubtedly helped in Canada.

(and, yes, people are the same everywhere, capable of good and bad, all of us, depending on all of the various factors that determine our health, wealth, and cultures).

yes mate ....unfortunately all monies given to the Indigenous are received and administered by third parties and corruption is , frankly , rife.......such is life , we'll get there eventually..x

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

There are habitual criminals who make life hell for some local communities. Usually the crimes are described as petty e.g. theft, burglary maybe some form of minor violence. I use the word petty but in reality the victim doesn't seem it as such. Few are cured by prison life but crime rate reduces when they are inside. Everyone (with some exceptions) deserves a second chance but third, fourth fifth,,, no. Lots of tax payers money wasted in dealing with low level crime.

There is no simple answer but that doesn't mean you don't take some action.


Our society needs laws to maintain it's structure if people know they won't be punished then the laws mean nothing and society will fall apart.

I do hope I didn't give the impression I was in favour of freeing all prisoners and inviting the population to form criminal gangs

I am in favour of not simply banging people up and walking away and thinking 'job done'.

I am in favour of looking into how criminality grips a community and seeking solutions. This requires clever flexible-minded engagement, and money (far less than we waste on prison system as it is now), not teams of social workers telling teenagers how they feel their pain.

We are doing things a bit better these days - consider, the 'cure' for criminality up to the 50s and beyond was the aggressive imposition of Christianity. All things Bright and Beautiful. So there is hope there may be a slow transition to rationality.

It will take depoliticization of 'crime' for real progress, though. Sadly I am expecting the Tories to continue to weaponize it. Old school lefties of the 1960s hippy mindset of course weaponized it to agitate for social change of a naïve quasi-revolutionary type. That seems now to have been marginalized. Sadly the tory weaponization is now entrenched in their DNA.