The Taylor Report on Terracing?

[Dave the OAP]

i feel really sorry for anyone connected to the Hilsboro disaster...but i dont feel that it was juts terracing which casued it. The police, stewarding and badly designed fences were a huge factor. Destroying terracing was a knee jerk reaction and now the FA seem to have blinkers on.

fair enough they can charge more for seats...but you can get twice as many people on a terrace. (on footballgroundguide.co.uk is sayes the Kop once held 28,000!!)
I would even be happy to pay the same price as it is for a seat..to stand on a terrace if that was the only hold back.

i think they are ruining a massive part of the game and taking the game away from the fans with these souless grounds cropping up everywhere (except Brighton!!)

there were also mitigating circumstances, like the motorways being blocked so people got there late....people leaving the pubs at the last minute...the crush outside that led to the disasterous decision to open a gate to relieve it outside..lack of stewarding inside the ground to limit people in the lower tier.

the thing is this used to happen on open terraces all the time...how many people remember the playoff game against Millwall in the North Stand where there was a horrendous crush.....also do you remember trying to make sure you stood the other side of a crush barrier, or you ended up with bruised ribs!!!!

All seater stadiums are here to stay and all the whining by football fans will not change this.

 

[Albion Rob]

It's the same as pretty much everything in this country. If we all made a fuss, didn't go to matches, didn't renew season tickets, didn't purchase merchandise, even, heaven forbid, refused to go to the new Wembley - meaning humiliation for the FA - then maybe they would have a lookmat it. All the protesting and newsletters in the world will not change their minds all the time stadia are full. However, people will not show that degree of solidarity and for every person who skipped games as a protests there would be plenty to fill the gaps.

It's also a reflection on our society. On my trips to Hellas Verona, the Curva Sud in the Bentigodi is like a death trap. Seats with no back so you can stand on them like a terrace but bloody hard to stand on and when the crowd surges, you end up all over the place. I quite like this but sadly plenty don't and would be making complaints.

I suppose the only way that terraces may return (apart from actually hitting the people who make the decisions in the pocket) would be for something dreadful to happen in a seated arens, a really bad fire or an explosion or something and people not being able to get out.

Obviously it's not worth that sort of bother so really a case of making the best we can of seats.

 

[Storer68]

even if the older style terraces came back you wouldnt get crushing as they wouldnt pack the stand out as much as the old days.

still enough room for a good ol SURGE though!

and therfore enough room for a repeat of the deaths at Bolton in 1946, Ibrox disaster in the seventies, heysel, st andrews, hillsbrough

so no more terraces

 

[jonny.rainbow]

I'm sure them orange square things swivel into a horizontal position and are the size of an average pair of buttocks - yep, defo seats them are ....

The seats aren't removed for safe standing. Can you imagine how time consuming that would be. Just think how long it takes to erect a stand at withdean.

 

[Grendel]

and therfore enough room for a repeat of the deaths at Bolton in 1946, Ibrox disaster in the seventies, heysel, st andrews, hillsbrough

so no more terraces

Except Heysel was caused by Liverpool hooligans and a crumbling stadium, St. Andrews was caused by rioting thugs and Bolton was caused by people breaking into the ground without tickets. Ibrox didn't even happen on a terrace, it was on a stairway. You can't attribute any of them solely to terracing.

 

[Man of Harveys]

Except Heysel was caused by Liverpool hooligans and a crumbling stadium, St. Andrews was caused by rioting thugs and Bolton was caused by people breaking into the ground without tickets. Ibrox didn't even happen on a terrace, it was on a stairway. You can't attribute any of them solely to terracing.

But that's proving a point - all of those things are nonetheless far less likely to happen with all-seater, all ticket grounds, IMHO.

Isn't that why they introduced them post-Taylor and, complain as people like, terraces are not coming back because, fun though they were, they simply were a bit dangerous. They were small injuries during every game on the Kop, for example.

Terracing was great but it lasted as long as it did because it was cheap - 2 people in the space of 1 seat - not because it was fun or safe. I'm very dubious about the prospect of reintroducing it and don't support any such campaign at all.

 

[Grendel]

But that's proving a point - all of those things are nonetheless far less likely to happen with all-seater, all ticket grounds, IMHO.

I don't think they are. Is there any conclusive evidence that all-seater grounds have reduced hooliganism? Or is it down to better policing and banning orders? The Ibrox disaster could easily be replicated at the South Stand at Withdean - all it takes is a few people at the back to start pushing when everyone leaves. People aren't less likely to gain illegal entry to a ground because it's all seater, rather, they're less likely to because ground design has changed somewhat since 1946 (the Bolton disaster) making it more difficult - if not impossible - to do so.

Old style terracing was, undoubtably, more dangerous than all seater grounds. But there's nothing unsafe about the standing accomodation that I've been on in Germany or even Lewes, with barriers all the way along every other row. It's safe enough to be used in the Bundesliga, but apparently not in the top divisions over here.

 

[Storer68]

but terracing encourages crushing (as anyone who experienced the North Stand will understand).

And the taylor report had nothing to do with hooliganism - ithe deaths at Hillsbrough were all about trying to cram as many people as possible, in as short a time as possible into a space whuch had no method of access control.

which is why the authorities like seats - because they create access control in that you can't legally force more people into an area where they have a designated space in the form of a ticket and a corresponding seat.

 

[Seagullible]

I'd love terracing to come back and it's not difficult to work out the space needed per person and then the full capacity of the stand. Take a percentage off avoid overcrowding and add sensible stewarding and....
...just seen the flaw - sensible stewards!!!

 

[Easy 10]

If terraces are inherently "dangerous", then why is it that the teams in the lower divisions are under no obligation to convert their grounds to all-seater ? Why is a terrace at Griffin Park acceptable, but a terrace at St Andrews not acceptable ? Are lower division fans more expendible ?

Its a hypocritical nonsense. Terraces are perfectly safe as long as the club controls the number of fans in any given section of the ground. The clubs safety certificate will dictate the precise capacity of each section of the ground, so you either let in x number of fans through the turnsstile, or sell x number of tickets for that section, and THATS IT.

Whats so hard about that ?

 

[Storer68]

I The Ibrox disaster could easily be replicated at the South Stand at Withdean - all it takes is a few people at the back to start pushing when everyone leaves.

harsly likely - the Ibrox disaster happend when the home side scored a winning goal.

I mean, how likely is that at Withdean

 

[Dandyman]

If terraces are inherently "dangerous", then why is it that the teams in the lower divisions are under no obligation to convert their grounds to all-seater ? Why is a terrace at Griffin Park acceptable, but a terrace at St Andrews not acceptable ? Are lower division fans more expendible ?

Its a hypocritical nonsense. Terraces are perfectly safe as long as the club controls the number of fans in any given section of the ground. The clubs safety certificate will dictate the precise capacity of each section of the ground, so you either let in x number of fans through the turnsstile, or sell x number of tickets for that section, and THATS IT.

Whats so hard about that ?

Well said

 

[Simster]

If terraces are inherently "dangerous", then why is it that the teams in the lower divisions are under no obligation to convert their grounds to all-seater ? Why is a terrace at Griffin Park acceptable, but a terrace at St Andrews not acceptable ? Are lower division fans more expendible ?

Its a hypocritical nonsense. Terraces are perfectly safe as long as the club controls the number of fans in any given section of the ground. The clubs safety certificate will dictate the precise capacity of each section of the ground, so you either let in x number of fans through the turnsstile, or sell x number of tickets for that section, and THATS IT.

Whats so hard about that ?

Wise words. It's all about how you control the number of punters.

The point about policing the terraces is a valid one though. I'd like to see a compromise where terracing was only allowed behind the goals, and well out of the way of rival supporters.

 

[jonny.rainbow]

The main factor that caused the Hillsborough disaster was the the Police Officer in charge, Duckenforth I believe, attempted to solve crushing OUTSIDE the ground by opening up a gate allowing all to bypass the turnstiles.

This is exactly the point. If turnstiles are used to monitor how many have entered the stand then there can never be the degree of overcrowding that was caused that day.

Incidentally. On Fans United day, almost eight years after Hillsborough, a gate to the North Stand was opened allowing a large amount of late arriving fans to enter.

 

[Man of Harveys]

If terraces are inherently "dangerous", then why is it that the teams in the lower divisions are under no obligation to convert their grounds to all-seater ? Why is a terrace at Griffin Park acceptable, but a terrace at St Andrews not acceptable ? Are lower division fans more expendible ?

Its a hypocritical nonsense. Terraces are perfectly safe as long as the club controls the number of fans in any given section of the ground. The clubs safety certificate will dictate the precise capacity of each section of the ground, so you either let in x number of fans through the turnsstile, or sell x number of tickets for that section, and THATS IT.

Whats so hard about that ?

Primarily, because, for most of the time, a terrace at Brentford will be called upon to contain probably 1/10 of the total amount of people that could be - and were - crushed in there before these things were controlled. And we're talking about 3-4,000 max here - at Birmingham, or Liverpool, or Hampden, or Ibrox, or Heysel, or at Hillborough you could have been talking anywhere between 20 and 30,000 people doing the crushing - a force capable of killing people, as we've seen.

Sadly, the argument about "well they have terraces at the rugby", or in other countries, comes, I think, down to the behaviour of the people who have been in them. Cardiff Arms Park (as was) saw a marked increase in vandalism on its terraces once football was played there. It's an uncomfortable truth but there we are.

So, you COULD say - "right, 50 of you have tickets for that standing section, 50 of you over there" etc. but that's all a lot more difficult to segregate and manage than it is with seats. And at most new grounds, the point of entry is related to where you're going to be sitting (like at the Millennium, for example), not just the old "get through the turnstile and fight for a spot" system that went with terracing.

 

[jonogulls]

Primarily, because, for most of the time, a terrace at Brentford will be called upon to contain probably 1/10 of the total amount of people that could be - and were - crushed in there before these things were controlled. And we're talking about 3-4,000 max here - at Birmingham, or Liverpool, or Hampden, or Ibrox, or Heysel, or at Hillborough you could have been talking anywhere between 20 and 30,000 people doing the crushing - a force capable of killing people, as we've seen.

Sadly, the argument about "well they have terraces at the rugby", or in other countries, comes, I think, down to the behaviour of the people who have been in them. Cardiff Arms Park (as was) saw a marked increase in vandalism on its terraces once football was played there. It's an uncomfortable truth but there we are.

So, you COULD say - "right, 50 of you have tickets for that standing section, 50 of you over there" etc. but that's all a lot more difficult to segregate and manage than it is with seats. And at most new grounds, the point of entry is related to where you're going to be sitting (like at the Millennium, for example), not just the old "get through the turnstile and fight for a spot" system that went with terracing.

If you don't want to stand, then just stay in the seats that will undoubtedly remain. No one's forcing you onto a 'dangerous' (hypothetical) terrace.

Why should we not be allowed to stand up just because you arrogantly (and wrongly) think they are unsafe?

 

[Man of Harveys]

If you don't want to stand, then just stay in the seats that will undoubtedly remain. No one's forcing you onto a 'dangerous' (hypothetical) terrace.

Why should we not be allowed to stand up just because you arrogantly (and wrongly) think they are unsafe?

Hey, you can (arrogantly or not) do that if you want - I know I have at just about every busy away game that I've been to recently. And I think it's good to do so knowing that you're a lot safer than you would have been 20 years ago with twice as many people crammed into the same space and no control over entry.

 

[Grendel]

Cardiff Arms Park (as was) saw a marked increase in vandalism on its terraces once football was played there.

Not related at all but Cardiff Arms Park is the ground of Cardiff RFC and as far as I'm aware, football has never been played there. The stadium that stood where the Millennium stadium now is, was the National Stadium.

 

[Easy 10]

Primarily, because, for most of the time, a terrace at Brentford will be called upon to contain probably 1/10 of the total amount of people that could be - and were - crushed in there before these things were controlled. And we're talking about 3-4,000 max here - at Birmingham, or Liverpool, or Hampden, or Ibrox, or Heysel, or at Hillborough you could have been talking anywhere between 20 and 30,000 people doing the crushing - a force capable of killing people, as we've seen.

In an overcrowded terrace, it certainly wouldn't take 20-30,000 people to do the crushing. Even a relatively small terrace can hold 3 or 4 thousand fans, and if thats not controlled properly, it can still be just as dangerous. The only figures you're adjusting is the scale of potential deaths. I say again, if terracing is considered unsafe for the top division, then why is it ok for the lower divisions ? Obviously lower division teams usually attract lower crowds, and are less likely to be at capacity, but it doesn't mean that the perceived potential dangers are any less.

What about cup games for lower league teams ? Brentford will be sold out for their match against Sunderland at Griffin Park. They will make it all ticket, they will issue the set number of tickets their safety certificate will permit for the stands and the terraces, the ground will be full, and the whole thing will pass off safely and without incident. It really isn't rocket science - there is absolutely NO REASON for terraces to be dangerous if its operated properly by the club in line with its capacities, and policed and stewarded properly on the day.

 

[Man of Harveys]

Purlease - take a look at some of threads on here after, say, stewards have tried to get people to sit down at a game, then tell me that all it would take would be "proper stewarding" to control a crowded, unallocated terrace. If people don't give a toss about what they're told to do by the authorities in a ticketed, seated environment, I can't see how a bunch of obedient choir boys would emerge in the context of an inherently less-controllable standing terrace. Like I said, I'm not pointing the finger: I've stood up amongst seats recently and thankfully it's been a lot safer than it was hemmed in in the bad old days.

And, if your first premise is true, then how come the accidents and disasters on terraces haven't been at Leyton Orient versus Rochdale, but at the Old Firm, or on the Kop at Liverpool? As I said, in recent years, the remaining terraces in the lower division are limited to hold a fraction of the total that they once contained and for the vast majority of fixtures, that isn't tested. They'll test them at the weekend and they're probably/hopefully won't be a disaster. But week in, week out, they're, IMHO, more likely to be dangerous than a more controlled environment such as ticketed seating.