[Politics] The state of things

[chickens]

I would agree with those advocating for higher tax, I think it is required, but also agree that we need better managers in positions of responsibility.

My (vicarious) experience of Civil Service management is that it sits on its hands as much as possible, and considers management to be disseminating instructions from the grade above.

Real management involves more. You have to be prepared to ask why you’re asking your team to perform actions, what your management intend the result to be, and you have to (as non-confrontationally as possible) be prepared to push back sometimes and say “this isn’t the right solution because of x and y.”

From what I’ve seen of the Civil Service, pushing back in any form is considered rude, disruptive, and is a fast-track to getting yourself outside of any decision-making structures. It simply isn’t tolerated. The result is the worst kind of group-think where privately at least half of the people in a room think “this won’t work” but in a meeting they nod and agree to implement something that either can’t be implemented, or in many cases has unintended side-effects worse than the problem that was originally under discussion.

From my limited experience, the Civil Service seems an organisation that stamps on criticism and those who criticise, rather than encouraging open debate. In doing so it loses all its opportunities to improve.

 

[AmexRuislip]

I would agree with those advocating for higher tax, I think it is required, but also agree that we need better managers in positions of responsibility.

My (vicarious) experience of Civil Service management is that it sits on its hands as much as possible, and considers management to be disseminating instructions from the grade above.

Real management involves more. You have to be prepared to ask why you’re asking your team to perform actions, what your management intend the result to be, and you have to (as non-confrontationally as possible) be prepared to push back sometimes and say “this isn’t the right solution because of x and y.”

From what I’ve seen of the Civil Service, pushing back in any form is considered rude, disruptive, and is a fast-track to getting yourself outside of any decision-making structures. It simply isn’t tolerated. The result is the worst kind of group-think where privately at least half of the people in a room think “this won’t work” but in a meeting they nod and agree to implement something that either can’t be implemented, or in many cases has unintended side-effects worse than the problem that was originally under discussion.

From my limited experience, the Civil Service seems an organisation that stamps on criticism and those who criticise, rather than encouraging open debate. In doing so it loses all its opportunities to improve.

A calming influence on you in your world of work, I'm guessing

 

[BadFish]

I would agree with those advocating for higher tax, I think it is required, but also agree that we need better managers in positions of responsibility.

My (vicarious) experience of Civil Service management is that it sits on its hands as much as possible, and considers management to be disseminating instructions from the grade above.

Real management involves more. You have to be prepared to ask why you’re asking your team to perform actions, what your management intend the result to be, and you have to (as non-confrontationally as possible) be prepared to push back sometimes and say “this isn’t the right solution because of x and y.”

From what I’ve seen of the Civil Service, pushing back in any form is considered rude, disruptive, and is a fast-track to getting yourself outside of any decision-making structures. It simply isn’t tolerated. The result is the worst kind of group-think where privately at least half of the people in a room think “this won’t work” but in a meeting they nod and agree to implement something that either can’t be implemented, or in many cases has unintended side-effects worse than the problem that was originally under discussion.

From my limited experience, the Civil Service seems an organisation that stamps on criticism and those who criticise, rather than encouraging open debate. In doing so it loses all its opportunities to improve.

Sounds very similar to education here in Australia. Meetings involving rooms full of experienced, qualified and skilled educators who won't push back because they will be ostracised and labelled trouble makers. Decisions are made by leadership who are all picked because they agree with the philosophy and ideas of the boss. The worst kind of echo chamber. Then comes the micro-managing

And now those who encouraged and put in place this topdown system are sitting around tables asking why there is a teacher shortage.

Twats

 

[vegster]

I think its fair to say that we are f***ed. We are destroying the planet, mostly due to growth and exploitation. Wealth gravitates upwards to a few wealthy people while the majority of us fight for crumbs at the expense of each other. Not much hope really for the future, Merry Christmas.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It’s significantly underfunded so more money will play a part in improving things. But the NHS does need a serious overhaul, it’s not fit for many of it purposes. It’s quite simple though, just pick one of the many National public health care models which work, there’s plenty to chose from, work out how much it will cost, and tax accordingly; you can still call it the NHS. Job done and move onto eduction.

Yep.

Wouldn't happen in England, though.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I was listening to a chap on the radio who argued that for such a huge organisation, the NHS is run rather well. It’s just under-funded.

Mate, it isn't run well.

 

[Machiavelli]

Because they have been consistently complaining about the high tax burden ever since the NI rate was upped to pay for social care.

Disagree. It's been 30 years since John Smith made the case for higher taxes in a manifesto. They lost. They're deeply concerned that a similar campaign accusing them of being the high tax party/tax bombshell/etc from the majority of our press which, in turn, they fear will have the electorate turning (and voting) against them.

 

[Zeberdi]

There are 47,000 vacancies for nurses, so agency nurses are brought in at double the price.

I worked for the NHS for years back in the late 70s to early 80s - that’s always been the case with all areas of NHS staff - as union members we were incensed that agency staff were getting paid almost a third more than we were - in fact the biggest issue of the day was a lack of continuity in patient care because of it. The other issue that has not changed is there has always been ‘too many Chiefs and not enough Indians‘ running the NHS (that was quoted to me by a Dr Gough, one of the top Occupational Health Consultants at the RSCH back in the 70s)

As for the present: It’s not for nothing that Health, Education, Immigration and Transport have all been regarded as ‘political footballs’ over the decades: How we care for the vulnerable, for children and for refugees in our society/coming to us seeking asylum, is a political choice as is how much these areas are publicly funded and to what extent. The only people that seriously object to funding improvements to our public services by raising top levels of taxation (ie on wealth) are those already in higher/top income tax brackets and who can afford private limousines, private jets, private healthcare and private schools - half of them btw are sitting on their arses in the HoP and the HoL or are captains of our public utilities - yep, the people with the power to make those decisions or influence them in a significant way.

As has been mentioned before by Herr T on another thread, appointing a Cabinet Minister for Health who actually has some experience working as a healthcare practitioner would be a start! Currently, the MP that heads the Department is an ex-insurance lawyer with a political background that includes scrutinising government spending.

We have plenty of money floating around in the British economy to State-partnership run the NHS and transport system to comparably as high standards as anywhere else in the World that has advanced healthcare and transport systems - we don’t have any fully nationalised public services and haven't since the Tory Government started contracting out public service provision in the ‘80s under Thatcher’s free market reforms - including periodically making a right cock up of it and costing the Government even more :

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Cabinet-office-cross-government-transforming-governments-contract-management.pdf

.

Clearly ‘contracting out’ fragments the lines of accountability, can cost significantly more for the Government and often doesnt provide the most effective way of service delivery. An overhaul of the structure of both transport and Healthcare is certainly warranted, whilst maintaining hybrid public service provision.

IMO - At the risk of sounding like an anorak Corbynite - (I’m not!) we just have to ask whether we want to maintain and cultivate further, a society of vast differentials in personal wealth in this Country or whether we would prefer to see a fairer distribution of wealth through personal wealth taxation? Do we want, for example, the ending of unfettered fat cat bonuses for the CEOs of our public banks and utilities who are crippling us with soaring fuel bills and mortgage rates? Do we want to see the closure of tax havens and loopholes that allow multinationals, leer jet and super luxury yacht owners, to avoid UK domestic tax laws for example? I know what I would prefer and I don’t think the Con Party will deliver it.

Foxes in charge of the Hen House

Tory millionaires: Conservative MPs and their absolutely mind-boggling net worths

Boris was once paid a rate of £20k an HOUR for public speaking engagements

thetab.com

(Sorry for the long post - that is it now! )

 

[Taybha]

This is 100% True , so as i was driving down into Aberystwyth town today the main drag runs past the hospital where id say about 15-20 NHS staff were stood outside on their minus 5 degrees picket line , as i hurtled past at 3mph i tooted and in return got a lovely hurragh in return, here's the bit where it became clear to me as the nose on my face that these types of humans are pretty much incapable of actually going on strike for more than a hour.

So as i drove by a van in front of me about 3 cars down decided he'd had enough of the turtle Bus and pulled out to overtake it , the van who then slammed on his brakes for some reason, wallop the car behind ploughed into the van, absolutely made a right mess of the car, so i glanced back to see 15-20 people running to the scene of the accident, not a banner in sight.

Iv'e no real conception of what it takes to be a nurse , a porter , a brain surgeon working for the NHS, these people are simply made of different materials than your regular human being, it must be a biological DNA thing .

I'm so tired of listening to endless dullard politicians explaining the reasons it would be a bad idea to give these people a higher than average pay rise, banging a f***ing pot simply won't cut it this time, pay these extraordinary people what they deserve,

 

[Cotton Socks]

Does anyone know any of nurses or similar that went into the job as they thought they would earns loads of money from it? I don't.
As a country we need nurses and healthcare professionals, not only do they get shit pay, they also have to pay, to be taught a job that gets shit pay! What kind of crazy system doesn't train the people that we were clapping for not so long ago, for free!!!
At least we know the nurses are only there because they care & love helping people & are not their for the pay. Half of them are probably still paying off their loans! Completely messed up system when some of the most important people in a society, have to pay to become the most important people in a functioning society & get the lowest pay in that society. I include teachers in that as well. It's a mess

 

[GT49er]

I worked for the NHS for years back in the late 70s to early 80s - that’s always been the case with all areas of NHS staff - as union members we were incensed that agency staff were getting paid almost a third more than we were - in fact the biggest issue of the day was a lack of continuity in patient care because of it. The other issue that has not changed is there has always been ‘too many Chiefs and not enough Indians‘ running the NHS (that was quoted to me by a Dr Gough, one of the top Occupational Health Consultants at the RSCH back in the 70s)

As for the present: It’s not for nothing that Health, Education, Immigration and Transport have all been regarded as ‘political footballs’ over the decades: How we care for the vulnerable, for children and for refugees in our society/coming to us seeking asylum, is a political choice as is how much these areas are publicly funded and to what extent. The only people that seriously object to funding improvements to our public services by raising top levels of taxation (ie on wealth) are those already in higher/top income tax brackets and who can afford private limousines, private jets, private healthcare and private schools - half of them btw are sitting on their arses in the HoP and the HoL or are captains of our public utilities - yep, the people with the power to make those decisions or influence them in a significant way.

As has been mentioned before by Herr T on another thread, appointing a Cabinet Minister for Health who actually has some experience working as a healthcare practitioner would be a start! Currently, the MP that heads the Department is an ex-insurance lawyer with a political background that includes scrutinising government spending.

We have plenty of money floating around in the British economy to State-partnership run the NHS and transport system to comparably as high standards as anywhere else in the World that has advanced healthcare and transport systems - we don’t have any fully nationalised public services and haven't since the Tory Government started contracting out public service provision in the ‘80s under Thatcher’s free market reforms - including periodically making a right cock up of it and costing the Government even more :

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Cabinet-office-cross-government-transforming-governments-contract-management.pdf

.

Clearly ‘contracting out’ fragments the lines of accountability, can cost significantly more for the Government and often doesnt provide the most effective way of service delivery. An overhaul of the structure of both transport and Healthcare is certainly warranted, whilst maintaining hybrid public service provision.

IMO - At the risk of sounding like an anorak Corbynite - (I’m not!) we just have to ask whether we want to maintain and cultivate further, a society of vast differentials in personal wealth in this Country or whether we would prefer to see a fairer distribution of wealth through personal wealth taxation? Do we want, for example, the ending of unfettered fat cat bonuses for the CEOs of our public banks and utilities who are crippling us with soaring fuel bills and mortgage rates? Do we want to see the closure of tax havens and loopholes that allow multinationals, leer jet and super luxury yacht owners, to avoid UK domestic tax laws for example? I know what I would prefer and I don’t think the Con Party will deliver it.

Foxes in charge of the Hen House

Tory millionaires: Conservative MPs and their absolutely mind-boggling net worths

Boris was once paid a rate of £20k an HOUR for public speaking engagements

thetab.com

(Sorry for the long post - that is it now! )

No idea about the answer for everything, but as far as the NHS is concerned it has to start with a blanket ban on contracting out - specfically (to start with) on using agency nurses costing n times as much per hour as directly employed ones. Then we can make a start dealing with the cleaning and catering staff, and the people making huge profits supplying the same to the NHS.

Pay the wonderful, dedicated workers (and yes, I include the catering and cleaning staff in that) direct, not the leaches.

 

[Pavilionaire]

The Tories have wreaked havoc over the last decade. They are a party of weak leadership and dominated by self-interest. The planet hasn't got a hope with people like them in charge. This really goes beyond party politics - this is about mindset, core values, long- term thinking.

 

[The Clamp]

Judging by the front pages today, the Tory plan to make people turn against our nurses has massively back-fired. Even the Daily Mail is on their side, sort of.

The nasty party has seriously misjudged this one. We will NEVER take their side over our nurses. Another seriously hefty nail in the Tory coffin.

Arseholes.

 

[Zeberdi]

Judging by the front pages today, the Tory plan to make people turn against our nurses has massively back-fired. Even the Daily Mail is on their side, sort of.

The nasty party has seriously misjudged this one. We will NEVER take their side over our nurses. Another seriously hefty nail in the Tory coffin.

Arseholes.

I’ve just read this \/ \/ on the BBC website

“The UK government says the Royal College of Nursing's pay demands are unaffordable.
No 10 said there were "no plans" to look again at the pay deal for nurses, despite calls from some senior Tories.”

‘arseholes’ barely covers it

 

[BadFish]

Johnathan Pie once again hits the nail on the head.



Is anyone actually intending to still vote for this shower? (or at least admit to it)

 

[The Optimist]

I was more interested in the 'being kept low'... which doesn't seem to be the case. it looks more like a steady rising trend to me.

Inflation? Unless you can demonstrate that the rise in tax is above inflation (which maybe it is), then there isn’t really a rise.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Johnathan Pie once again hits the nail on the head.



Is anyone actually intending to still vote for this shower? (or at least admit to it)

Tears of anger, listening to that. I thought I was going out on a bit of a limb, yesterday, suggesting perhaps, maybe, after they take over as the government, the Labour party might find that grasping the nettle and dealing radically with the effects of these decades of shitehousery from the tories may have some traction in the country. A little bit of hope.....perhaps there is some?

 

[Zeberdi]

I saw this old bit of 1990s graffiti on a piece of builders hoarding this morning -

So - Even Millwall supporters have something to say on the ‘State of Things’ - probably less literately than Albion supporters though and perhaps a tad too ’old labour’ if I understand the sentiment correctly ….

“No one likes us, we don't care”

 

[Bodian]

I saw this old bit of 1990s graffiti on a piece of builders hoarding this morning -

So - Even Millwall supporters have something to say on the ‘State of Things’ - probably less literately than Albion supporters though and perhaps a tad too ’old labour’ if I understand the sentiment correctly ….

“No one likes us, we don't care”

View attachment 154774

Has @Your Mum been going since the 90s??

 

[Zeberdi]

Has @Your Mum been going since the 90s??

I just had to google that - had no idea ‘Your Mom’ was even a thing! But yes, apparently…

your mom Meaning & Origin | Slang by Dictionary.com

Your mom is a phrase that’s typically followed by a statement poking fun at someone’s mom.

www.dictionary.com

Edit - doubly confused - no idea ‘Your Mum’ was the name of an NSC member either