The Scale of the Universe

[Hungry Joe]

The predictable atheist argument - Everything is amazing, divinely perfect for existence, it certainly seems as if it's been intelligently designed - but no, it's all just a lucky coincidence

Remember it is just not just our planet that seems fined tuned - it is the universe itself & the laws that govern it - such as the fundamental forces, the elements, space and time, etc. All very specific laws which seem specifically tailored to allow planets to form and for life to come into existence & flourish

Ok then, define what you believe 'God the creator' to be? and how it all works then, in a rational way.... you know, with observable proof and stuff like that.

 

[Bold Seagull]

There are creationists who are also biblical fundamentalists, who believe Bishop Ussher's calculation (published in 1654) that the time and date of the creation was the night preceding Sunday, 23 October 4004 BC. And there are creationists who believe that their God created the Big Bang.

In my rare encounters with Bishop Ussher's followers, I've been mightily impressed with the creativity of their imaginations, particularly when they get into a discussion about stuff like dinosaur fossils.

If you belief in something so strongly whose only evidence is faith, then you can pretty much adjust it to whatever you want. This is why EVERY religion factures into sub sects, denominations, etc. because you can just choose to believe what suits you.

Big bang, oh we'll believe that then, but God created the bang right...Evolution, oh yeah, he created that and gave 'life' the first nudge.

When you don't need any evidence whatsoever, you can literally say what the hell you like about anything!

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Remember it is just not just our planet that seems fined tuned - it is the universe itself & the laws that govern it - such as the fundamental forces, the elements, space and time, etc. All very specific laws which seem specifically tailored to allow planets to form and for life to come into existence & flourish

If that's the argument, it seems to me that most of the universe has spectacularly failed to deliver any form of life that is flourishing.

 

[Hungry Joe]

If you belief in something so strongly whose only evidence is faith, then you can pretty much adjust it to whatever you want. This is why EVERY religion factures into sub sects, denominations, etc. because you can just choose to believe what suits you.

Big bang, oh we'll believe that then, but God created the bang right...Evolution, oh yeah, he created that and gave 'life' the first nudge.

When you don't need any evidence whatsoever, you can literally say what the hell you like about anything!

Spot on. You can even butcher fellow Christians for not agreeing with your own version if you take the fancy. "Kill them all, God will know his own" and that. Brilliant.

 

[Bold Seagull]

The predictable atheist argument - Everything is amazing, divinely perfect for existence, it certainly seems as if it's been intelligently designed - but no, it's all just a lucky coincidence

Remember it is just not just our planet that seems fined tuned - it is the universe itself & the laws that govern it - such as the fundamental forces, the elements, space and time, etc. All very specific laws which seem specifically tailored to allow planets to form and for life to come into existence & flourish

What we know about the universe is that we know we don't know what 95% of it is!!!

To take that lack of understanding as a cue to conclude a divine creator must be in charge as there is no other explanation is just pure ignorance if you ask me.

If you want to believe in God, or divinity or whatever, then that is your choice, but don't try to pretend that somehow science and discovery somehow backs that up simply because it doesn't yet know why certain things are like they are. It's a ridiculous argument.

 

[Questions]

I am always amazed by people - who I had always previously considered sound - when they start talking about their beliefs in a god.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

There's a slightly prettier version at http://htwins.net/scale2/ although it contains the same information. Great fun to play with.

Those yoctometers look ENORMOUS.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

There are creationists who are also biblical fundamentalists, who believe Bishop Ussher's calculation (published in 1654) that the time and date of the creation was the night preceding Sunday, 23 October 4004 BC. And there are creationists who believe that their God created the Big Bang.

In my rare encounters with Bishop Ussher's followers, I've been mightily impressed with the creativity of their imaginations, particularly when they get into a discussion about stuff like dinosaur fossils.

It was an interesting discussion on the beach and particularly to hear the viewpoint of the lad who incidentally was with a larger group of creationist colleagues all working on the geology to further their beliefs.

As someone who finds it easier to believe things on the basis of science I struggled to accept their view that the local geology was only a few thousand years old, even without my eminent friend confirming that it needs many many millions of years to evolve and arrive in the condition we now find it. He pointed out that the Creationists will often argue that God created the geology already it in its present state for example only around 4000 BC, so conveniently stepping around the scientific evidence. Clearly they are very focused in their beliefs.

 

[Hungry Joe]

Those yoctometers look ENORMOUS.

I'm just waiting for some hip hop that includes references to how many yoctometers the rapper's cock is.

 

[LargeHadronZugzwang]

According to the Biologist Haldane if God exists then there is 'An inordinate fondness for beetles'. One in five species is a beetle, that includes plants. With roughly 10000 species of birds and 4000 types of mammals, this is dwarfed by the different types of beetles - 300,000 and counting. In fact this figure may be many times larger. There are as many types of Dung beetle as there are birds.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VIIB1bBeetles.shtml

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I am always amazed by people - who I had always previously considered sound - when they start talking about their beliefs in a god.

Yep. People are amazing. And, for the most part, it's worthwhile trying to find out more about what makes them tick. It might be art, it might be music, it might be religion, it might be food and drink, football ...

The extent to which some folk dismiss religion as simply "ignorance of the facts" is astonishing. There is a lot more to religion than belief in a theory of creation. In my experience, many "religious" people don't give the matter any thought at all.

 

[MattBackHome]

According to the Biologist Haldane if God exists then there is 'An inordinate fondness for beetles'. One in five species is a beetle, that includes plants. With roughly 10000 species of birds and 4000 types of mammals, this is dwarfed by the different types of beetles - 300,000 and counting. In fact this figure may be many times larger. There are as many types of Dung beetle as there are birds.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VIIB1bBeetles.shtml

To paraphrase Gervais (when he used to be funny), I'm sure there's alot of nitpicking there. And the beetle counters have got new species quotas to fill. "it's new. It's a... Slightly Dungier Beetle"

 

[Hungry Joe]

Anyway, my personal beliefs aren't really relevant - but the point is that you won't be able to find observable proof supporting atheism either, and it's far from rational...

That's a bit of a cop-out to my original question though isn't it? And I think trying to pass atheism off as a fashion thing is just further patronising along the lines of your first post that kicked this all off.

 

[jgmcdee]

Anyway, my personal beliefs aren't really relevant - but the point is that you won't be able to find observable proof supporting atheism either, and it's far from rational...

Sorry, no. If you posit something that is unsupported by any evidence whatsoever then it's down to you to prove it rather than for others to disprove it.

Atheism is simply stating that there is no divine-beyond-all-knowledge creator. Not sure how that fails the rationality test.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

... the Creationists will often argue that God created the geology already it in its present state for example only around 4000 BC, so conveniently stepping around the scientific evidence. Clearly they are very focused in their beliefs.

In fairness to the good Bishop Ussher, he was working with the only evidence that was available to him in the early seventeenth century ... the Hebrew Bible. Subsequent evidence has come to light that delivers a different conclusion.

As Stephen Jay Gould writes: "I shall be defending Ussher's chronology as an honourable effort for its time and arguing that our usual ridicule only records a lamentable small-mindedness based on mistaken use of present criteria to judge a distant and different past. Ussher represented the best of scholarship in his time. He was part of a substantial research tradition, a large community of intellectuals working toward a common goal under an accepted methodology…"

 

[Bold Seagull]

Anyway, my personal beliefs aren't really relevant - but the point is that you won't be able to find observable proof supporting atheism either, and it's far from rational...

Proof of atheism?? What are you talking about? Atheism isn't a belief system, it's only definition is someone who doesn't believe in God. What observable proof would you need to demonstrate God doesn't exist!? How is not believing in God not rational!?

 

[withdeanwombat]

Before I was I wasn't, and after I was I won't be.

 

[KZNSeagull]

For those not watching Science Club with the latest member of The NSC Brainy Totty club (not Dara!), have a play with this:-

http://htwins.net/scale/

Thanks for that Mr Brother, very interesting. I will ignore the rest of this thread!

 

[gripper stebson]

The reason atheism is so fashionable at the moment is because humanity has so much faith in science - and rightly so. However the problem with this is that science can only explore the physical, it can only rationalise or prove things that it can apply the scientific method to, and it can't really do that with problems such as the origin of the universe, life and reality. It simply can't explore theism because it isn't scientific, it can only work with facts and the truth is that it doesn't really have any, it's all guesswork - abiogenesis, multiverses and so on - and let's be honest the idea that it is all just a fortunate coincidence is far-fetched, even if you add infinity to the equation...

Anyway, my personal beliefs aren't really relevant - but the point is that you won't be able to find observable proof supporting atheism either, and it's far from rational...

Is it as far fetched as a bearded chap living in the sky somewhere making it in seven days a few thousand years ago? No, no it's not is it.

I had the age old argument regarding dinosaur fossils with a pretty devout Christian chap the other day. He told me the Devil had put them there as a diversion! This, as far as he was concerned, was the end of the argument.

The older (and hopefully wiser) I get the more religion seems utterly ludicrous. Invented by man to control the masses...

 

[turienzo's lovechild]

wow...that descended quickly into yet another religious debate didn't it